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April 8, 2024 City Council Meeting

Introduction:

Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order (Video time mark 0:00:02):

The meeting was not formally called to order. Laura Rodgers said it was 7:00.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:05):

Rodgers asked if everyone wanted to rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Pledge said.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:48):

Rodgers asked Jonathan Smith [city manager] if Karen [DeLorge, clerk] was there tonight. Smith said DeLorge was at a clerk’s training conference. Rodgers said oh, OK. (Smith made an additional unintelligible comment.) Rodgers said they did the approval of the agenda. Smith said they didn’t call the roll.

Gary Casey, Amanda Forte, Ted Quisenberry, Laura Rodgers, and Peg Roth were present.

Smith said Mark Lamphier and Sue Wylie were excused absences.

Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:01:14):

Rodgers said before they approve the agenda, she guesses she wants to make a motion to see if they can table the resolution, the proposal to waive the Depot Park Rental Fee for 501(c)(3) Non-Profit Organizations based on some information that they received from Sue Bisio. Thank you to her for providing them this information. It’s a whole packet and kind of needs to be reviewed with our legal counsel. And so, if they could table that to the next meeting and change the agenda in that way.

Rodgers asked if she needed to make a motion to do that.

Motion by Roth; second Casey.

Motion to amend the agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Roth said great idea.

Tom Ryan [city attorney] asked Rodgers which meeting she wanted to move it to. Ryan said not next meeting, the meeting after that. They have other stuff coming.

(Unintelligible council discussion.) Rodgers said yes, 10b, the proposal to waive the Depot Park Rental Fee for 501(c)(3) Non-Profit Organizations. Quisenberry said do they just want to say (unintelligible). Rodgers said for a future meeting.

Forte asked if it was in their packet. Rodgers, Ryan, and Roth said it was an email. (Rodgers handed something to Forte. Unintelligible additional comments.)

Roders said OK, public comments.

Ryan said it should be motion to approve the agenda as amended. Rodgers said oh, OK.

Forte said she would make a motion to approve the agenda as amended. Second Quisenberry.

No discussion.

The motion to approve the amended agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Rodgers said so moved. Ryan said thank you. Rodgers said you’re welcome.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:02:54):

[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has occasionally decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them. In the past, members of the public have been cut off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act).

If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]

(Rodgers read the rules for public comments.)

Is there anybody that is here tonight that would like to make public comment?

Roth raised her hand. Rodgers said OK.

Roth said actually, she has a couple. The first one she mentioned last week. A couple of people that were here were interested that are not here this week, but again, on the community art show. Community school art show. They have now 22 locations where the artwork will be distributed and displayed for people to view. So, all the way from the Gateway down to Dixie Highway, Katie Bowman is doing both of her buildings, so it’s just going to be a nice event and they will be on display from the middle of May until the end of the school year. She’s sorry. End of school year is June 7th, so they’ll have a list of where all these pieces will be.

Roth said and then the second thing she wanted is to tell people that Paul Brown, who is the Independence Township Treasurer, and Roth are co-hosting a presentation by Sheriff Bouchard. And that will be on May 16th at Independence Township Hall meeting room, which is on the lower level of Independence Hall. Doors will open at 5:30. The presentation is at 6:00, and if you have not heard him speak recently, you really should. Anybody who thinks we don’t have a lot of crime and even more coming to our community. He has, she just saw him speak, he spoke before a different meeting she was in. He has obviously a wealth of knowledge, but information on things that we do not have a clue what’s going on, especially drugs in the school system, things that are being filtered through. It’s just not meant to scare people, but to inform people. And it’s really important that people know what’s going on. So, just to invite anybody in the community. So, since it’s between the city and the village, the village, the city, and the township, they’re hoping to get a lot of the community to turn out.

Rodgers asked Roth what the date was again. Roth said it is May 16th. Doors open at 5:30. Presentation is at 6:00. He asked that Roth give a couple of suggestions for topics that she thought are important, and of course, she thinks the influx of the illegals is one of them. Huge problem with home invasions, obviously the drugs coming into our country are huge and out of control, and our sergeant back there could probably maybe fill Roth in on a couple more. But the way he presents, a lot of times he gets a feel of the crowd and sort of goes with the flow of what the people want. So, sometimes he just does question and answer, and sometimes he just talks. So, they’d love to see everybody turn out for it.

Roth said she’d like to also introduce an old colleague of hers, Chuck Inabnit, who used to be on the council with Roth. So good to see you, Chuck. (Pleasantries exchanged between Inabnit, Roth, and Ryan.)

Roth said that’s it and thanked Rodgers.

Rodgers said they did get a letter from Dr. Thomas K Stone.

(Rodgers read from the letter.)

Comments from Dr. Stone:

I’m sorry that I cannot attend the meeting, but I wish to make the following comments. I have been a Clarkston resident for over 50 years, active in many activities and volunteering for many. Over the years, I was a frequent visitor to Depot Park and have appreciated its natural setting, so I see no need to add an attraction and oppose placing a pony cycle there, especially using funds intended for other purposes. Having served in many capacities requiring evaluation, I had little or no part in determining who or how they were done. I expect the same openness in evaluating our city manager. I don’t see how we can give appointees the power to fine, so I oppose giving that power to members of the CHDC [Clarkston Historic District Commission]. Thank you, Tom Stone.

Rodgers asked if there were any other public comments.

No additional comments.

Rodgers said OK.

Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:07:09):

Item 6a – Clarkston Independence District Library April Book Sale

    • Clarkston Independence District Library Book Sale Flyer (page 3/35 of the council packet)

Rodgers said they would move on to FYI. The Clarkston Independence District Library April book sale in their packet. The book sale begins on Tuesday, April 23rd and runs through Saturday, April 25th. Tuesday, April 23rd is a member preview night. Wednesday, April 24th and 25th and 26th are all 10:30 to, she’s sorry, 24th and 25th are 10:30 to 8:30 open to the public. April 26th, 10:00 to 5:30 open to the public with half price books and Saturday, April 27th, 10:00 to 2:00, open to the public $5 bag sale. So that’s the Friend’s spring book sale.

Rodgers asked if there was anything about that.

No comments.

Agenda Item #7, City Manager Report for 04-08-2024 (Video time mark 0:07:57):

    • City Manager Report, April 8, 2024 (page 4/35 of the council packet)
    • City Manager’s Annual Report for the 2023 Calendar Year (page 5/35 of the council packet)

Rodgers said next, Item #7 is the city manager report. Rodgers asked Smith if he just wanted her to read it, does he have anything he wants to say on it. Smith said he didn’t think he had anything to add to it at this time. Rodgers asked if she needed to read it. Smith said it is up to her. (Ryan shook his head no.) Rodgers said no, OK.

Rodgers said also included was the city manager’s annual report for the 2023 year. Rodgers asked if she needed to read this as well. Smith said no. Rodgers said it’s kind of long. Smith said five pages. Rodgers said yeah. (Smith made an unintelligible comment.) Rodgers said but it is on, it is part of the packet and if anybody is interested in reading what, the general activities; the city infrastructure duties; health, safety and welfare; financial; parking; Depot Park; DPW [Department of Public Works] garage; all those things that Smith addresses and what he’s done with them. It is available on the website in today’s agenda packet.

Agenda Item #8 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:08:58):

    • 03-11-2024 – Minutes (page 10/35 of the council packet)
    • 03-25-2024 – Draft Minutes (page 12/35 of the council packet)
    • 04-08-2024 – Treasurer’s Report (page 14/35 of the council packet)
    • 03-27-2024 – Check Disbursement Report from 03-01-2024 – 03-31-2024 (page 15/35 of the council packet)

Rodgers said they’ll move on to Item #8, Motion for the Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented on 4-8-2024. Final minutes of 3-11-2024, the draft minutes of 3-25-2024, the Treasurers report 4-8-2024.

Motion by Quisenberry; second Roth.

Motion to approve the consent agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Rodgers said the consent agenda passes.

Agenda Item #9, Unfinished Business (Video time mark 0:09:37):

Rodgers said Item #9 is unfinished business.

Item 9a – Resolution: Proposal to Install a Pony Cycle in Depot Park (Video time mark 0:09:40):

    • Resolution – Proposed Installation of a Pony Cycle in Depot Park (page 22/35 of the council packet)
    • Depot Park Playground Bike 2024 (page 23/35 of the council packet)
    • Photos (page 24/35 of the council packet)
    • Diagram (page 26/35 of the council packet)

Roders said Item #9a, Resolution: Proposal to Install a Pony Cycle in Depot Park.

(Rodgers read the resolution.)

Rodgers said so, she needs a motion – Quisenberry said to start to start the discussion. Rodgers said to start the discussion.

Motion by Quisenberry; second Casey.

Rodgers said first, council, does anybody have anything?

Rodgers recognized Roth for a comment.

Roth said she does not think this is appropriate for the playground, for the age that it will attract. She’s been out at the playground with her grandkids. Actually, Roth and her daughter, who’s a social worker, brought her two grandsons, 7 and 4, and the conversation of other children playing on the equipment that is there now was so bad that her daughter told her that they should get the kids out of there. They were referring to death and killing and maybe they were talking about computer games, she doesn’t know. But to her, this piece of equipment is not appropriate for the age group that they are trying to get in, that they expect to get into this playground. She doesn’t think it’s appropriate. She thinks the amount of money, it was amazing that, that meeting they went from nobody wanted to pay anything to do anything in the park to paying $3,000 to repair this. Roth doesn’t think that is the place that that belongs. She guesses that’s all she can think of that she wanted to say right now. You know, she thinks of things that have been taking place, that the groups that come down here. That equipment is for small children, in her opinion, and she just thinks that that’s going to attract, she looks at the maintenance, the installation, it’s got to have a cement pad. She just thinks it’s just a bad idea.

Rodgers recognized Casey for a comment.

Casey said yeah, does he understand that this is going to be manufactured? It’s not an old one that’s just going to be repainted? Rodgers said she believes it, at the last presentation, it was an old one, right? It’s not something new that he’s manufacturing, it’s a – Terry Hawk said no, they’re going to, yeah, they’re going to take the frame from an old bike and beef it up so, you know, bring it up to standard to be a playground instead of a bike. He means, it’s an old, yeah, it’s the bike that was built right here in Clarkston. Casey said OK. Hawk said it’s just like this chair. If you were to put it out in the park, it needs to be beefed up before anybody can be climbing on it and stuff like that. So, that’s what, and it was a talk about the cost. The people helping him are putting in their labor, the materials, he can’t ask them to put in materials too, so, it’s for the materials to build the frame and to build up the bike and make it so it’s safe.

Rodgers said so she knows that Smith gave Hawk the manual for what playground equipment has to be, safety-wise. Hawk agreed. Rodgers said so, when she was going through this earlier this weekend, she doesn’t see where, like, that discussion is, like, she doesn’t see what he’s doing. Hawk said he gave the statistics, the fall height and that to Smith of what it would require in space-wise. He believes it’s something like 15 x 15 and a 3.5-foot fall if he’s not mistaken. Rodgers said yeah, but she guesses her concern is that there’s so much metal on it – Hawk said metal, correct – and they, you know, heat in summer. Yeah. Like, there’s specifications in that playground equipment that talks about what it can be made of and all of those kinds of things too. And Rodgers is wondering if he addressed any of that.

Hawk said well, it’s definitely metal and it’s going to be, you know, powder coated, very similar to other items out there in the in the playground. He’s sure some of the standards are probably changed about every year, so he doesn’t know. It wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be the same as something that was out of plastic and made in China. No, it’s not going to be that. It’s going to be metal, but it’s going to be built to where it would be safe for kids to play around on. And adults. He means, you know, if your picture taken on a Pony Cycle where they were built and it’s, he’s honored that the city’s even, or the village is even considering this, so you know, they’ll do what they can to make it to where it will be safe and then be an addition to the park.

Rodgers recognized Quisenberry for a comment.

Quisenberry said he takes exception with his extreme colleague here (gesturing to Roth). He thinks it’s a great addition to the park. He thinks that it’s no different than, it’s the two or three different items that as soon as you walk into the park from here, there’s a horse thing and another, he doesn’t know what it is, a duck, but then there’s also like a skateboard that you can be on that’s on springs and stuff like that. He looks at those, and the kids are playing on those, and they appear to be more, he would rate them at more highly accident prone than this stationary object that you’re going to be putting in there. It’s not going to wobble, it’s going to be secure from what he’s read in this, secure into the ground in a foundation with the footing, and it’s not going to have the tendency to move around like those ones that are out there right now that were built that way, intending to have that type of functionality with them, and he doesn’t think that putting that there, in that same area, is going to be something that kids aren’t going to want to use. They use those other things all the time. They’re constantly on that thing bouncing back and forth, going from one to another. Now, maybe the other kids don’t, except to horse around or something, but he thinks it’s very appropriate for kids that are 2, 3, 4, 5, up to 7-8 years old to be able to go and sit there and pretend that they’re driving this thing like they would any other thing. There’s room for it there. There’s room in the budget for it. That’s exactly what they wanted to spend the money for, not that specifically, but the money allocated, $6,500, is to augment and put some things in there, and why not put something in there that has another dimension to our community as opposed to just something from another play station then. So, he thinks that it will be used. He thinks it’s safer than some of the items on there. Not that he’s saying take those out, but he doesn’t think it’s a safety hazard, and he thinks it’s going to be put in with all the due care and caution that needs to be done.

Hawk asked to be recognized for a comment. They have talked about, it won’t be on springs, but they had talked about having it like in two sizes of two to where it would wiggle, and the steering would go back and forth without a pinch point. It would be chains that would allow the steering wheel or the steering handlebars to wiggle back and forth. It would have a little bit of wobble like this (gesturing). They’d have a double seat on it and the brake pedal, which is unique to the Pony Cycle, it’s on the floorboard and it’s like a T-handle coming out of the floorboard. Have that just so it would, they could push down, and it would be a movement on there. So, they have a little bit of movement with the steer-, with the handlebars. It would wiggle a little like this (gesturing) but not great. It would just give them a little bit of a, it would add a little bit of rattle noise to it. And then the brake, to where the brake would go in, you know they won’t have control for the cable or anything for the throttle. They won’t have a mirror on it. You know, the headlight and taillight will be better material than what a standard bike would have, that would be more steel, and rounded, to where it would be no sharp edges, you know, but it would have a little bit of wiggle, but not like a spring or anything on there.

Quisenberry said not at all like those ones that are there. Hawk said no, they talked about a spring, and he thought, he had somebody say, you know, they could have a couple of truck springs on it. He went no, no, that’s a little bit too much, you know, just a little bit of wiggle, just to give them a little bit of excitement about what it might be like, you know.

Forte said her only thing is, can they just have their rec planner look at it after it’s installed? Hawk agreed. Forte said so just, like, just someone to double check everything, and make sure it’s all, you know, she thinks it’s a great idea. Casey said he assumes that would happen. Forte said sometimes, it’s good to ask. Casey said he’s assuming after it’s installed somebody would inspect it. Forte said she doesn’t know. Smith said yeah, it’s up to the municipality to ensure that, you know, to the best of their ability, these guidelines are enforced. Casey said right, right. Smith said it would really just be their staff. They would probably engage the building inspector to help them with this. They could have their city engineer who sent this to him, and Smith talked to him about this initiative, and get him to inspect it too. Forte said yeah, just once.

Rodgers said she guesses her only concern is that she feels like that should all be done before they put the money into it. Like what are, what is the product? She knows, like, when Hawk talks about it, it’s this good, poly coating. She sure that it is, but just from, she doesn’t know, maybe Ryan can weigh in from a legal standpoint. Like, do they give their OK on something that they really don’t, like, she thought that’s why Hawk was bringing it back tonight, to give like the nuts and bolts of what is it that it’s going to be coated with, what is it going to look like when it’s done, like, there’s got to be a model somewhere in someone’s head or on paper or computerized that has it exactly the way it’s going to end up looking because – (interrupting Rodgers), Hawk said the museum. You have it up in your museum. Rodgers said that’s not all fixed already. She’s talking about the finished product that Hawk is going to put into, like, she doesn’t, we don’t buy cars because they tell us there’s going to be good tires on it, and you have to kind of see it first, at least in a 3D form, at least either, at least for her. She guesses that’s what she’s saying.

Casey asked if it’s going to be similar to the one that’s on display at the library. Hawk said correct. Yes, that’s the model that he’s chosen, too, because it’s enclosed, and they can enclose that. The other models are more open, and they can’t have the kids climbing through it.

Casey said yeah, he rode them when he was a kid. Hawk said OK. Casey said he’s very familiar with it. Hawk said yes. Casey said he agrees with Quisenberry. He thinks, he means, it’s a part of the history of Clarkston. He thinks it belongs here.

Quisenberry said he thinks it’s kind of hard for, to ask them to build it, bring it here, show it to them, put it there. Rodgers said she’s not asking them to physically build it. She’s asking them to tell her what is it, like, how does it go with the statutes [statues] that are there, that it’s safe. That’s all. She just, it’s a great idea. Just make it safe. Quisenberry said they could get a commitment. Hawk asked if they meant the front of the park, like where the dog is?

Roth asked where it was going to be. Hawk said that’s the part too. If it was up near the front, it would be like introduction to the, you know, Depot Park. Here’s a little bit of history. You’ve got the sign there about the river and water. And you’ve got the dog thing. And then the kids can go and play back into the, he means, more the playground. You can’t have a big playground area and watch all the kids, but it would be more of an area as you walk into the park.

Quisenberry said it’s right by the other age-appropriate apparatuses that kids of that age are going to want to play with right at the beginning there. And he’s wondering, could they get an assurance from Hawk that once it’s put in place that they’ll have these inspectors be able to look at it and say, and if they come up with some sort of recommendation saying they think he needs to put strength in this here with another widget on this side to whatever, and a commitment from Hawk is that once they look at it and they give a blessing to it, that’s good, or if they don’t, that Hawk is gonna then do what he has to do make it right. Hawk said yeah, he definitely would want them to look at it before they did it, put it in the ground, you know, in other words, they can, they’re going to make the frame, two-piece frame, one that will go on the bike and one that will go in the ground so the bike can be set down onto the frame and then they can bring the bike and that frame over and they can go over everything except for the cement. You know, it’s got to be a two-piece. They’ve got to make the whole thing because it’s got to be into the ground with the tubes coming up and then the bike will sit down on that with the locking nuts to hold that on there so they can take it off, and if they need to paint it, need to touch it up, need to weld something onto it, whatever, they can keep maintenance on. You know, that’s something they can do with the metal where you can’t necessarily do it with the fiberglass or plastic either.

Smith said it makes sense for Hawk to bring the bike here after the fabrication stage is done but before painting – Hawk said right – (continuing), Smith said so that people can look at it, and if there is another welded bracket, he hasn’t started painting it yet, so it could still be added. Hawk said they could do that. They would be pretty well committed for the park, you know, once they start beefing it up. Smith said yeah. Hawk said he would love to be able to just say, yeah, they can put a bike down there, but they know that’s, that would, that’s like a metal trash can, you know, he means, a couple of kids kick in the sides and that’ll get, would never, he means, it would be not very durable that way, he means, they want it to look nice for longevity.

Ryan said has the city, he knows the city engineer sent those standards, correct? Have they weighed in on whether this is appropriate for the standards, are the standards met for this? Smith said well, no they haven’t, and kind of to Rodger’s point, they want to see the bike, and you know, hold this up side by side with it and kind of go through it, but he can send them these pictures and ask from the pictures can, to what degree can he assess.

Ryan said and how about our risk management people at MML [Michigan Municipal League], they could weigh in too, because this is going to be something that’s going to be, you know, added if it’s approved to their, you know, property that they own. So that’ll have to be evaluated by the risk management people to see if it’s appropriate or not, he means, before they go to all expense of, you know, fabricating it and then finding out.

Rodgers said right. That’s what she means. She means, she thinks it’s a cool idea. It’s a great idea. It speaks to our community. She loves that part of it. She’s just, you know, it’s just that the whole, she knows how stringent they are on kid’s safety stuff and if they spend $3,000 on it and then they’re like, oh no, this doesn’t, you know, it’s got to be diagrammed out so that they know where those safety things are being met, what are you altering on there. If it’s a coating on it, what is the coating, like, they need to, they’ll need to know that. And once they know that – (interrupting Rodgers), Casey said did Hawk say it’s powder coated. Hawk said yeah that will be double powder coated, right. Put Jim Robbins (unintelligible crosstalk). Casey said that’s a very tough surface. Hawk said that’s the same as your picnic tables.

Rodgers said she gets that. She understands that. But in order for a city manager or a city, she’s losing the word – Quisenberry said engineer – (continuing) Rodgers said engineer to say yes, it’s got to be written down like, she hears him, like, she knows it’s gonna be powder coated, but like, what is the brand of powder coating and how much? What’s the depth of it? Those are the kinds of things that go into knowing whether something is safe or not. And Hawk probably has all of that in his head, or the person who is going to do it for him has all of that in his head. Hawk said right. Rodgers said it’s just hard to get that, then just on paper, like what – Ryan said he means, they have these standards for reason, and this is a unique item obviously, right. Rodgers said it’s super cool. Ryan said it’s unique, but it’s still got to, it’s still gotta meet the standards, so they’re not putting something that’s not safe in the park, that’s all.

Hawk said yeah, well, he definitely doesn’t want anything (unintelligible) safe. Ryan said right. He appreciates that, just, he thinks, HRC [Hubbell, Roth & Clark, the city’s contract engineers] should weigh in on it. He means, they should understand it and then the people at MML should be advised of this and ask what their risk manager there thinks about is this appropriate or not for a public park. Hawk asked what’s your – Ryan said Michigan Municipal League, their insurance carrier. Hawk said oh. Smith said so, he can reach out to them tomorrow, and a week from today, he’s meeting here in person with a city engineer, so he could show him these pictures. He could take them over to the museum and show them the bike there, so they can get a sense for the dimensions of it and ask that Hawk be prepared to speak to what’s in here after they’ve seen that bike at the library. So, Smith can do that next week.

Forte said and can they get an idea of where this is going to go in the park too at that time. Smith said well, you know, that’s a council decision really. They’ve talked about either in the playground itself, in the mulch area of the playground, or does it sit separate like the dog is, which was intended to be kind of, you know, a mascot for the park. Hawk said at the entrance of the park. Smith said it could be just at the entrance of the park, as Hawk said, more as an art installation than playground equipment. But it just depends on what the council wants to do. It could go anywhere.

Hawk said they have kids that climb on those bikes, you know, with the permission of the parents and permission of Hawk, and they do enjoy getting on the bikes, you know, but he understand too that there’s liability in the evening, what happens in the park when the big kids come out, the little ones go home, and you know what happens like that, and he understands that, you know, if they could put it up on a post, it would be a lot simpler, you know. The museum is nice, but that’s on loan. He’s got to get the bike back, to get the bike back from the museum. But that’s just a mockup, he means, that’s a bike that basically he put these parts together. This is pretty much what they’re going to be using and going from there. It’s not the, he hasn’t done anything to put it on the road. He hasn’t done anything to put it in the park. It’s just extra parts he put that he’s got that he can donate that bike to the, you know, to the cause. He donates the bike. You know, if he knows it will be put somewhere as it sits, but it has to, it’s not running condition. It’s just basically a frame right now. Forte said right. Hawk said but that’s the style of bike. And that’s because all that under the shroud can be closed off. The other bikes are open, and the kids can’t be climbing around inside. There’s a lot of, that would be just too much, you know, in there.

Rodgers said so, what do they do here. Smith said well, it’s up to council if they feel they’re ready to vote on it tonight or if they’d like to table this until they have the feedback from HRC, and to Ryan’s point, from MML as well, their risk management.

Rodgers asked for thoughts from council.

Roth asked if the Friends of Depot Park weighed into this, because she remembers Ken [Ermer] was talking about there has to be a certain distance between – Rodgers said oh yeah, like all those things – (continuing), Roth said pieces of equipment and they know all of that. She doesn’t remember if they weighed in at all. Rodgers said as far as placement goes, they’d have to weigh in. Roth said it seems to her those are the people that normally, she means, they were through all the meetings with, or the two meetings. Smith said those dimensions are on there, so they could have the city engineer look at that to see if there’s enough space to accommodate that somewhere. Roth said she thinks the Friends of Depot Park, they have a plan. She remembers Ermer was talking about you couldn’t place the equipment too close together. So is that what that is. Smith held up a sheaf of paper and said they just responded. Hawk said there’s a fall zone, an area, yeah, for kids to jump around without running into each other. Smith said yeah, Ermer was just referring to it (unintelligible).

Quisenberry said wasn’t it earlier stated it was 15 x 15 x something else? Hawk said yeah, there’s a fall height which basically is from the seat down and then there’s the distance for the length and the width of it of what needs to be around. Quisenberry said so, it’s in there, like Smith said. Hawk said and it goes by like the width of the handlebar is the widest point and then you go from there and add on. Smith said it would be pretty small for this bike. He thinks they could find a space in there for it. The thing that Ermer was concerned about is if they did one of these generational swings or some other bigger piece of equipment that might be suitable for handicapped children, that would take a bigger fall zone, and they’d have to do some careful planning and they’ll have to take something out and fit that in, or do they extend it, extend the playground in some way, but that was primarily what he’s thinking. Smith didn’t think he was thinking in terms of the bike. It’s a pretty small footprint that would take up. A fall zone.

Rodgers said personally, she thinks it’s a really cool idea. She just doesn’t feel like they know what the specifics of it is. It’s kind of like they’re signing a contract, but they don’t really know what exactly, it wouldn’t take much to fill out, you know, what they need. She thinks it’s just all in somebody’s head, but it’s a pretty trusting thing to say yes to $3,000 for, when they don’t really know what their product is. Hawk said so, she’s asking like, in other words, of course, the lead, the paint, there’s no lead in the paint anymore. So, he means that’s the powder coated which he’s sure Rodgers don’t even know that on what they have out there that’s been powder coated, and then the metal. He means, he doesn’t understand the statistics Rodgers is asking him for. He means, the tires are rubber tires. Rodgers said but like, if they buy a slide, it’ll say this is what it’s made of. This is how high it is. This is what, you know, this is what the arms are made of. This is what the brackets are made of. Roth said this is the kind of flooring that they’re going to – (interrupting Roth), Rodgers said right, she means, they diagram all that out. You know exactly what the things are and how that equates to safety.

Hawk said well, they refer to the standards. Rodgers said right. Roth agreed. Hawk said that’s what they do. Rodgers said and so, she feels like this doesn’t have that yet. Like, it just doesn’t, it’s just this is what it looks like, and just put this together, but this is what it looks like, and we’re going to powder coat it, and it’s going to be perfect, and like, she doesn’t know if that’s enough to say, for her, not for everybody else. She’s just speaking for herself.

Casey said they would not, he assumes, that they would not be authorizing $3,000 no matter what. They would be authorizing the money based on approval of the product. Forte said that’s what she was just going to say, so she doesn’t – (interrupting Forte), Hawk said he doesn’t – Rodgers said wait, say that again. Roth said she doesn’t understand what Casey means. Casey said they’re not going to authorize $3,000 to be paid right now. Roth said OK. Roth said that $3,000 plus, because of you add on then all of the, you know, the people who are approving it – Quisenberry said up to $3,500. Roth said $3,500. Casey said yeah. Quisenberry said Casey said he’s talking about it’s a matter of yes, they’re going to approve it, but they’re not going to pay Hawk until it’s all done, and it meets all their stipulations. Casey said that’s right. He just doesn’t see a problem. He thinks they’re trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Rodgers said but that’s different than what the resolution, that’s different than what the motion is. The motion is for $3,500. Roth said right. Casey said right. They could authorize the $3,500 to be paid upon approval of the project. Quisenberry said completion and approval of all the specs. Rodgers said so, these guys would buy all the stuff themselves, put it all together, be all done, and then if the product meets our standards, then they’ll pay for it. Casey said right, that’s what he’s saying. But that’s what normally happens. Roth said and if it doesn’t, then they don’t pay for it. Quisenberry said well, they give him a chance to bring it up to standards, and then if he doesn’t, then we don’t.

Casey asked Hawk if that’s satisfactory. Hawk said well, it sounds feasible. Yeah. He said that the other day when he was there for, the couple weeks ago, when he was in here a month ago, that yeah, it’s got to meet your approval. Casey said yeah, but Hawk can build it without front money. Hawk said yes, yes, definitely. Casey said OK, that’s all he’s saying. They’re not going to be out anything if they approve it. If they approve the cost tonight and pending approval of the finished product. Quisenberry agreed. Rodgers said that makes more sense.

An unidentified man said then they have to change the resolution then. Rodgers said yes. The unidentified man said because the resolution put in front of them is that they’re paying the money tonight. Rodgers said exactly, so they would have to make an amendment. The unidentified man said they are approving it. Casey said that’s what they’re going to do. Hawk said he wanted that it would have to be approved. Provided that it passes the inspection, that would be – Rodgers said they should probably add that to the resolution, yeah. Hawk said he means, he needs more than their word on it, he means, he would need something that would make people (unintelligible).

Quisenberry said he doesn’t see where it says that. Casey said they are authorizing Hawk. Quisenberry said they are going to authorize it, but nothing in here says that he’s going to be paid right now. Casey said no. Rodgers said but it doesn’t say that he’s not either. Casey said he thinks it’s OK as is. Forte said should they just add a line upon approval of city engineer – Ryan said and risk management. Forte agreed and asked where they would add that. Ryan said probably right at the, add a sentence to the end.

Forte aid OK, so she’ll make a motion to amend the resolution to add that they’ll approve the funds pending approval from the city engineer and our risk management. Casey asked if that’s another whereas. Forte said she thinks so. Smith said this is the summary. Ryan said it would be, now therefore be resolved that, the last sentence. Smith said that would be another sentence after the $6,500. Casey said OK.

Hawk said he would gladly look over the, you know, the paper and sign it after he looks over it, check it out. Ryan said well, this is their resolution. Hawk doesn’t have to sign. It’s going to be a resolution. Hawk will get a copy of it. But it’s going to need four votes because it’s an expenditure. Casey said right.

Rodgers said so, they’ll be adding, amending it to say after with the current balance of $6,500, approval pending city engineer and risk management. Ryan said they well, they have final approval and payment pending review and authorization by the city engineer and city risk manager from MML. Casey said that’s good. Rodgers said OK.

Rodgers said so final approvement and payment pending review and authorization from city manager and city risk manager from MML. Ryan said city engineer. Rodgers said she’s sorry, pending city engineer and city risk manager from MML. Ryan said correct. Rodgers said OK.

Hawk said and it could be open to where you have it. It doesn’t have to be in the playground area. It could be maybe like they say – Casey said they don’t have to decide where it’s going to go right now. Ryan said well, it says installation Depot Park, but you can always change that. Casey said well, yeah, in the park. Rodgers said it could be anywhere. Hawk said the whole area is Depot Park. Quisenberry said it does say Depot Park playground. Smith said they could scratch the word playground out of that last sentence, last paragraph.

Rodgers said so, the amendment would be the last line, now therefore be it resolved that City of the Village of Clarkston hereby authorizes Terry Hawk to proceed with the manufacturing of a safe and simplified Pony Cycle for installation in Depot Park by the DPW staff at a total not to exceed the cost of $3,500 to be paid from the Friends at Depot Park budget, 401265728.001, from the current balance of $6,500, final approvement and payment – Ryan said approval – (continuing), Rodgers said final approval – Ryan said and payment – Rodgers said and payment, pending review and authorization from city engineer and city risk manager from MML.

Rodgers asked if they had to make a motion to amend this resolution. Quisenberry said Rodgers and Forte just did. Rodgers asked if Casey wanted to second it, and he agreed.

Ryan said they needed a roll call. Smith said he would do the roll call.

Rodgers, Quisenberry, Forte, and Casey voted yes. Roth voted no.

Smith said the motion passes.

Smith said, and just for amending the agenda, just so, because he’s DeLorge tonight, who made the motion. Forte to change the motion and Casey second it, and then Forte made the motion to amend, and Casey seconded.

Quisenberry said he made the original one and Casey seconded it. Forte made the motion to amend, and Casey seconded. Casey agreed.

Item 9b – Discussion: Follow-up on March 25th Motion: Appointment of a Committee to Conduct a Performance Review of the City Manager (Video time mark 0:43:09):

Rodgers said all right, moving on. Still under Item #9, Unfinished Business, B is the Discussion, Follow-up on March 25th Motion: Appointment of a Committee to Conduct a Performance Review of the City Manager.

Smith said so, this was added as a discussion item only. They already talked about it in previous meetings. This was just to give Quisenberry the opportunity to insert some ideas he had. Not to change the vote.

Quisenberry said yes. The motion was passed the last meeting, and he wasn’t there. And prior to the meeting, he had a conversation with the mayor about this whole issue, and his issue was that he doesn’t know that any of them in this horseshoe are really qualified to do an assessment on an evaluation of a city manager, of their city manager or the other person that was put on the committee. He wouldn’t want to, and he’s worked for probably a dozen different city managers. It’s a very complicated process to go through a performance evaluation of a chief operating officer, which is what Mr. Smith is for them. There are companies out there that do this, and when he was talking to the mayor, he mentioned that MML, Michigan Municipal League, has a service that they do exactly this type of work. They have people on staff, and they know what they’re doing, they know how to do the follow up, they know to, how to first set the criteria as to what the city manager is then going to be rated against, how, whereas they don’t.

Quisenberry said when he was talking to the mayor, he told her that if she wanted, he could call and talk to their chief counsel at the Michigan Municipal League and ask him about this. He did that and he got back with Quisenberry, and he told Quisenberry, yes, they have a service, they have people on staff that do this sort of stuff as a regular routine. They know what they’re doing, they know how to apply the proper standards, and if they’re going to do something like this, Quisenberry thinks they should probably do it so that they’re going to be pleased and satisfied with the end result and not come up with something that is not going to be a product they’re not going to be happy with.

So, Quisenberry’s thought was despite the fact that it’s already been voted and there is a committee to look into this, Quisenberry doesn’t think that there’s anything precluding them to directing that committee to work with whoever, if they do decide they want to reach out to the Michigan Municipal League, Chris Johnson is the name of the head attorney there, and he’s the one that Quisenberry talked back and with, that the people on that committee could certainly reach out to MML to talk to Johnson and whoever they’re going to have on their staff that does this sort of thing and say this is what they think their city manager should do and this is what they want to be able to assess, not just his qualifications and ability, but how is he doing with this. In short, there’s entities out there that do this sort of stuff, and they know what they’re doing. And as Quisenberry said, he wouldn’t want to serve on it because he doesn’t have any confidence in being able to fairly assess the work of their city manager.

Rodgers asked if there was a cost associated with this. Quisenberry said probably, but you know what, you get what you pay for. Rodgers said she was just wondering if Quisenberry knew what that was. Quisenberry said no, they didn’t go into that, but that’s something that could be delved into as this process begins. Quisenberry said he just would not feel confident. No offense to the people on this thing with the result of what would come up.

Forte said she wasn’t there either. So, who was appointed? Roth said Derek Werner.

Casey told Forte she needed to speak up for the audience. Forte apologized.

Forte said she wasn’t there either, so she was wondering who was appointed. Roth said Derek Werner. (Casey raised his hand.) Quisenberry said Sue Wylie. Forte said OK, Sue.

Forte said so yeah, she agrees. She thinks that makes complete sense. But yeah, the next step would be getting a cost.

Roth asked how they go about it? Do they just do the people, does anybody have any input as to – Quisenberry said of course they would. Ryan said there will be a lot of stakeholders that will be contacted by the League if they go that route.

Rodgers asked Ryan if he had any experience with that. Ryan said yes, Quisenberry’s right. They do this all the time and there is a cost. They talk to all the stakeholders and that’s, you know, matrixes and things and benchmarks, and he means, if the subcommittee wants to utilize that tool, he means, at Quisenberry’s suggestion.

Quisenberry said yes, he thinks because they already have the committee and unless they’re going to, they’re not going to dissolve it. But he just thinks that that should be the entity that actually does the work. As you said, get a hold of all the different stakeholders, not just us, but the other people throughout the community that can provide any sort of input on what the city manager should be doing and has he been doing it.

To Quisenberry, Rodgers said you, there were people in the audience last week that spoke to the fact that, you know, they would like to have input or there should be people from, remember the residents. There was a few that said that they, and this might be a way to reach them, have another group that’s you know, non- – Roth said third party – Rodgers said yeah, third party.

Quisenberry said when this committee meets and talks with whoever is going to do this, if they decide to do it this way, one of the things they can say is they’d like to maybe set up a meeting and have them address any people that may have some sort of input. And a stakeholder could be, you know, as far down the chain as just a resident.

Roth said which they all are. So, their experience with the city manager, she means, last week she thinks Cara [Catallo] said Roth shows animosity to the city manager, animosity not being the correct word, distrust. So, things that Roth has experienced, she would like to be able to say to someone, well, this is what she experienced. While there are good things, there are some things that happened that she would like to address with whomever it is. Quisenberry said and if there’s a process going on, then while that process is going on, they’re not going to deny somebody like Roth or somebody else to be able to give their input on how they think the city manager is doing. Roth said OK, that’s what she would like to do.

Forte said so, do they make a recommendation, or what’s the next step. Quisenberry said well, that’s what his thought was, and he even talked to Wylie before the meeting on that but it went ahead anyway, and so now moving forward, Quisenberry thinks that’s a good recommendation to move forward with this committee to let’s assign somebody, and it can’t be Smith, to work with MML, contact them, work with them to try to set up their service that they have for evaluating elected officials like this.

Roth said that would be the mayor, she would think. Forte and Casey agreed. Roth asked Casey if he agreed with that, and he said he did.

Rodgers said so, what do they do now. Ryan said he means, this is just a discussion item. Why don’t they, if there seems to be consensus that works in some, maybe Smith can talk to Wylie when she gets back, whatever, contact Chris Johnson and that next meeting, they would have the information, they can supplement the appointment if the committee accepts that, and move forward. But he means, nobody knows about it. He means, nobody knows what it entails, and that can be fleshed out. Roth agreed.

Quisenberry said and they can give them a ballpark figure as to what this is going to cost. Roth agreed. Rodgers agreed. Forte said that’s a great idea.

Quisenberry said someone in the audience had a comment. Rodgers recognized Charles Inabnit for a comment.

Inabnit provided his name and address and said he completely agrees with councilman Quisenberry on this. No offense to anybody that’s on the committee, but he thinks it should be an outside, impartial source doing that. Rodgers said collecting all the data. Rodgers agreed and said she liked that idea.

Roth said so wait for Wylie to get back and then she will move forward on it. Rodgers agreed. Ryan said they could put it on the agenda for the next meeting.

Casey said he assumes that MML would send whoever it is to make a presentation to them. Ryan said they could if you all want it, yeah. Forte said or to the subcommittee first. Quisenberry said why don’t they just check with them and find out what their process is within this because they’ve done this many, many times. Roth said yeah, maybe they don’t need to come in. Good idea. Casey said OK.

Rodgers asked if anybody else had anything they wanted to say about this.

No additional comments.

Agenda Item #10, New Business (Video time mark 0:53:00):

Rodgers said OK, they are going to move on to Item #10, New Business.

Item 10a – Resolution – Replace the Failing Coping on the Depot Park Raised Garden Beds (Video time mark 0:53:03):

    • Resolution – Replacement of the Coping on the Depot Park Landscape Beds (page 27/35 of the council packet)
    • Photos (page 28/35 of the council packet)
    • Bid Comparison (page 29/35 of the council packet)
    • Quote from Distinctive Landscapes (page 30/35 of the council packet)
    • Quote from Clarkston Landscape and Design (page 31/35 of the council packet)
    • Quote from Lowrie’s Landscape (page 32/35 of the council packet)

Rodgers said #10a is the Resolution to Replace the Failing Coping on the Depot Park Raised Garden Beds.

(Rodgers read the motion and noted there was an attached picture.)

Rodgers said so, she will need a motion.

Motion by Forte; second Roth.

Rodgers asked if there was any discussion on this.

Roth said she had a question. You know, looking at the picture of this, is part of this caused by snow removal, that it’s being hit because it’s like a ledge, wouldn’t, if it were simplified as it’s being repaired, it seems like if it were flush, maybe it wouldn’t, you know, maybe that’s what started it. Obviously, it needs to be repaired, but when she looks at it and sees what the damage from snow removal can do, it, just maybe that’s a bad design. Smith said it’s the assessment of the Friends of Depot Park this is being caused by two things. Road salt, and it is true that there is way, way more damage on the roadside than there is on the park side. And secondly, cars. That curb is fairly low. It’s only, you know, in spots, it’s only a couple of three inches, very easy to drive up on, and he’s seen cars with their tires right up against that. Roth said that far. Smith said that far, right up on the sidewalk, and their tires against the coping. Roth said wow. Smith said so, yeah, and he guesses there is, it’s just, it’s an old brittle product at this point. So, it doesn’t take a lot to force it to crumble. But the Friends of Depot Park think it’s primarily salt and vehicles hitting it. The plows don’t go up onto the sidewalk. They stay in the asphalt roadway. They’ll shovel the sidewalk. Roth said they don’t use that little – Smith said they use the John Deere tractor, but he doesn’t think they hit the – Roth said they hand shovel those sidewalks. Smith said they use the John Deer tractors for that. Roth said yes. They push it into the road and then they come by with the truck and take it away.

Rodgers asked if anybody had any other questions for Smith?

No questions.

Rodgers asked if Distinctive Landscapes did it to begin with. Smith said no, well, he’s not sure. He couldn’t find the paperwork of who originally did it, but it’s possible. He’s not sure.

Rodgers asked Smith if he’s worked with Distinctive Landscapes before. Smith said he has not. Tom Lowry [Friends of Depot Park] has. He says all three companies will do a great job, so there’s no distinction there. Rodgers said OK.

Rodgers asked if anybody in the audience had any questions.

No questions.

Rodgers asked if they needed a roll call.

Smith said yes, so let’s go to the roll call.

Forte, Casey, Roth, Roders, and Quisenberry voted yes.

Smith said the motion passes.

Item 10b – Resolution – Proposal to Waive the Depot Park Rental Fee for 501(c)(3) Non-Profit Organizations

    • Resolution – Waiving Depot Park Rental Fees for Non-Profit Organizations (page 33/35 of the council packet)

This agenda item was deferred to a future meeting.

Item 10c – First Read – Proposed Ordinance Changes to Enable Our Building & Code Enforcement Officials to Issue Citations (Video time mark 0:58:24):

    • Ordinance to Permit Fines up to $5,000 for Historic District Violations (page 34/35 of the council packet)

Rodgers said next up in new business, C, the First Read – Proposed Ordinance Changes to Enable Our Building & Code Enforcement Officials to Issue Citations.

Ryan said a few meetings ago, they had asked him to, you remember Smith talked about our code enforcement officer felt frustrated that she could not issue a ticket. They’ve always had the authority to await Oakland County Circuit Court for historical district violations, but that’s expensive and time-consuming. So, they wanted the ability to write a civil infraction ticket that they could take to the 52-2 district court and adjudicate it locally. So, this ordinance would amend the ordinance they have on the books now to allow the code enforcement officer to write a ticket for the historical district violation.

Ryan said also, when talking with Smith, he said that well, what about, there’s also a concern on other matters about the property maintenance issues, which is another section of the ordinance. (To Smith), Ryan said right now, the city building official can issue a citation for the property maintenance ordinance, but not the code enforcement officer. So, Ryan doesn’t know if Smith wants both in. Now would be the time to add the code enforcement officer. Smith said yes, that was the desire. Ryan said but the building official does have authority to issue under the property maintenance, international property maintenance code. Smith said OK. Ryan said which is good. He doesn’t know if they didn’t know that before, but they do, so this, he would read if he may, then he’ll read this, or first reading, and then they can talk about that specific issue.

(Ryan read the ordinance.)

Ryan said currently, adding a section E.

(Ryan continued to read the ordinance.)

Ryan said so, that would allow either for the Historic District Commission, the city manager, or the code enforcement officer to be allowed to issue a citation for that for that offense. It sounds like what Smith is saying is he would like to amend another section to include the code enforcement officer for the property maintenance code, which currently the property maintenance code can only be issued a citation by the city manager or building official. So, they would add a section to add the code enforcement officer to that section of the ordinance as well.

Forte said so, do they need a motion for that? Ryan said no, they’re first discussing it. He just wants them to understand where that would be plugged in.

Casey asked if it would be a subsection E2? Ryan said well, no, because that would, that talks about historic district ordinance. So, what it would be, it would be it would be a different, it would probably be a section. It would be a section. They do a new section 201 to refer to the property maintenance code which is section 150.015. So, that would be a new section 201 to, currently, is allow the city manager, or the code, the building official and code enforcement officer. So, that would be added, the code enforcement officer for that section also.

Quisenberry said so, they have three representatives of our government that would be authorized to issue code violations. Ryan said yeah, and he didn’t mean to speak, but he did. So, C is for violation of codes adopted. It’s after 150, which includes the property maintenance code, which is what they’re really honing in on right now. It currently only allows a city building official to to issue a ticket. It currently allows not only the city manager, but the city manager kind of issues for zoning violations. Nobody else.

Ryan said he doesn’t know, if they’re going through this now, if they want to just have Smith do the zoning violations or do they want to have the building official or the code enforcement officer do that. Smith said the property management, the HDC can just be the code enforcement officer. If they want to have the city manager on there as well, that’s up to them, but the property maintenance, that’s really and certainly HDC as well, but the property maintenance is what Smith was bringing up, is they want their code enforcement officer to be able to write citations for property maintenance. Ryan said so, for that to occur, it would say, to fill the city building official and/or the code enforcement officer and that would be amending section 10.11(C) to include, to add language city building official and code enforcement officer.

Forte said they don’t have that on their page. Ryan said no, he’ll have to redo it and bring it back. He’s just kind of flushing it out so they make sure everybody’s comfortable with it. Rodgers said OK.

Ryan said an so, that would be 201, and then the new 301 would be the old 201, which amends the penalty section to allow the city manager or code enforcement officer to authorize a violation.

Quisenberry said just to be clear too. Roth said yes, because she’s really confused. Quisenberry said oh, he’s following it all, but he received a correspondence from a resident and they spoke and indicated that they were not in favor of having anyone on the Historical [Historic] District Commission have the authority to write violations. They don’t, and they won’t, even if this passes. They don’t. Ryan agreed. They can just contact somebody here in the city, and they can then turn it over to one of the two or three people to go out and look at it and determine whether a violation is appropriate. Ryan said correct.

Roth asked if it’s two or three. Ryan said well, if you’re just talking about the HDC, it’s going to be two. The way it’s written, the city manager and/or the code enforcement officer. Roth said so, the HDC would call the city manager, and then they go look at whatever the complaint is and decide whether or not it warrants a ticket. Ryan said yeah, and then – (interrupting Roth) Ryan said they have some situations out there now that do warrant tickets – Roth said OK – (continuing) Ryan said but there’s been no one, nobody wanted to go to circuit court. Roth and Quisenberry agreed. Ryan said but this would be district court. Roth said OK.

Forte said so like if you, she’s just going to ask, she doesn’t know, so say you did something, it didn’t get approved, and then the HDC flags that. What would happen is they would, she’s sorry, but this sounds so dumb – Ryan said no, it’s not dumb – (continuing) Forte said but like it would, they would give it to the city and then the code enforcement officer or city manager would issue a ticket and you just get that in the mail. Ryan said first a notice of violation, putting the person on notice that they may be in violation of the ordinance.

Roth said OK, so, that’s step one. Ryan agreed. Roth said and that’s decided by Smith or the code enforcement officer. They decide whether it’s something to go forward on. Ryan said well, but they’re going to be reacting to the HDC. Roth said right, they trigger it. Ryan said right. Roth said they respond to it and then they decide. Ryan said they have X number of days to bring it into compliance. Roth said OK, so the violation, that goes first. Ryan agreed. Notice of violation first with a compliance period. Failing a compliance period, then the citation would issue for the appearance ticket, municipal civil infraction in 52-2 district court. Roth said OK, which is right up the road. Roth agreed.

Forte asked what would the compliance period normally be. Ryan said it probably depends on what the specific issues are, but he means, it can be up to 14 to 30 days. Forte said OK. Just curious. Ryan said yeah, no.

Roth said so, is there something, is there a guideline that determines that? Are there set, if whatever is determined that needs to be fixed or whatever, how – (interrupting Roth), Ryan said well, some of these things, he means, have been there for years. Roth said right. Ryan said so, he means, if it’s something new, or a new person just hasn’t been on notice, that’s one thing. But if it’s something that’s been there for a while, that’s probably going to be a shorter period just because it’s not new information. (Quisenberry made an unintelligible comment.) Roth said so, there’s a schedule somewhere. There’s a schedule that says this is how if you go to court, this is the fine you will pay. So, the people know what they’re looking at. Ryan said yes.

Quisenberry said isn’t that going to be up to the judge. Ryan said well, yeah, it is, but he means, once you get into court, then it’s out of our hands. Quisenberry said yeah, they’ll have a fine schedule or something like that.

Roth said well, that’s what she’s saying. If you’re going to say somebody is not following whatever rule it is, this is what your fine will be. She’s just wondering, is there a schedule then in the village so that people know. Ryan said no. By state law, it can be up to $5,000. Roth said state law. Ryan said yes, can’t exceed that. Typically, they’re not that high in district court.

Quisenberry said this gives them the legal authority to do it. He thinks what they want to also just kind of add in this is an operating policy outside of this on how it’s done because Quisenberry doesn’t think, he’s not comfortable with having the HDC contact the code enforcement officer and say this. Quisenberry thinks that when they go to put this in place, the HDC, because now our, if they did that, their code enforcement is now working for who, which, how many different people are they responding to. And he thinks it’s best that they just respond to one person. So, if there is a complaint that the HDC feels needs to be cited, then he thinks that the practice, the policy, should be that they contact the city manager and say this is what they’ve done, this is what they found, and now you guys handle it. Let us handle it rather than members of the HDC. Ryan said right.

Ryan said so, does that make sense? Do they want to add the code enforcement, Smith wants to add the code enforcement. It’s not an HDC issue, but Smith wants to add the code enforcement officer on the international property maintenance code as well as the building official.

Rodgers said and is that, is that for, like, down, what is that for? Ryan said junk cars, or you know, property has not been maintained, blight or (unintelligible crosstalk between council and Smith). Ryan said it deals with exterior stuff. Rodgers said that’s what she thought. Ryan said just like the HDC deals with exterior stuff, but that’s a separate body.

Rodgers said yeah, because Smith was saying that the code enforcement person said that they didn’t want to do it anymore because they didn’t have any teeth in the game. Just was a waste of time. Smith said they do the first step to notice the violation, that first step that Ryan talks about, but unless they just voluntarily complied, they have no teeth to go beyond that. Ryan said well, they have teeth, but it involves circuit court, which is expensive. And, he means, this gives them a local option. Casey said that’s a good change.

Rodgers said so, is there a price for each one of these tickets or when they go to court, they find out. Ryan said they find out. Yeah, right. Rodgers said OK, got it.

Roth said so, the schedule will only list then what the – Ryan said what schedule, he’s sorry. Roth said she’s sorry. She guesses she keeps thinking of the schedule. Is there any outline that a person would be able to look at, if you move into the historic district and you don’t do A, B, C and D, this is what you would be looking at. These are the fines that you would incur if you do not follow the direction to maintain paying, cars without license plates and junk. Ryan said no, that’s not, well, that’s not, that’s a property maintenance issue. Roth said OK. Quisenberry said he thinks Item C addresses what Roth is saying right there.

Ryan said they could adopt a schedule of fines. They, he means, they haven’t they haven’t really issued any of these tickets before. So, if they’re going to get into this and they want to do that, that’s fine. Like a first violation is X, and a second violation is, you know, X plus. And if, you know, they don’t have that yet because they haven’t done any of this. Yeah, but they can certainly adopt something like that if they’d like to.

Smith asked Ryan if he had any examples of other municipalities that have such a schedule that they could use for the amount. Ryan said for sure, yeah. Smith said having an amount to tell people, he thinks, would be better than just up to $5,000. Ryan said right. Smith said just to say it’s X amount of dollars if you don’t remove that junk car from your driveway.

Rodgers said and as far as the HDC they’re talking, things like wrong fences, wrong windows, wrong, that kind of stuff. Smith said exactly. Rodgers said OK. Smith said install windows that were not approved by the Historic District Commission. Ryan said right. Ryan said and if nobody took an appeal to try to go above that to see that that was reversed. Rodgers said right. Ryan said and there are a couple of those out there.

Roth said she guesses, like just her point being, she would like to know that people are aware of what it is that they’re supposedly in noncompliance with, what’s expected of them. That’s, she guesses, her bottom line. Ryan asked what Roth meant by what’s expected, what penalty they pay? Roth said no, no. What is expected of them. For instance, the junk cars or whatever it is. Just using that as an example. Whatever it is, how people know that this is expected of them. She means, there are homes obviously that need to be repaired, that need to be repainted. So, as long as all of these things are applied evenly, evenly and fairly to everybody, they understand what it is that they’re expected of. Casey said he assumes that that’s outlined in the first warning.

Ryan said right, but let’s just talk about the HDC for a minute. There are people, there are residences in this town that people have known for a while what they should be doing and are not doing it. Roth said OK. Ryan said he means, they know, they’ve not, they’ve been to the HDC, they’ve been denied. They didn’t go any further. That’s the final order. And they have done nothing. So, this, these folks are going to get another notice, and they’re going to get a ticket. They know what they have to do, and they have known, but they haven’t done it.

Ryan said now, as far as a junk car situation under the international property maintenance code, or painting or something, a notice of violation, you’ve got, he means, a junk car. You’ve got 14 days to get this junk car out of here, or 21 days. They don’t do it. He means, they know what they’ve got to do. Or call the city manager, say I’ve got a problem. You know, the thing doesn’t work. I’m trying to get it out of here. Can you give me a little more time or something like that? But if they do nothing, then they’ll get a ticket, and they’ll ask the judge to have it removed. You know this is not, it’s not esoteric stuff, fortunately.

Ryan said now the HDC is a little more tricky, but that’s a process that they go through, and if they don’t comply with what the HDC says and they don’t take an appeal or anything, then whatever the HDC says is the final decision. And they know what that is, that’s all. Does that make any sense? Forte said yeah.

Ryan said he means, he can’t, and they will be, everybody will be fair and nobody’s, you know, well, everybody wants compliance. That’s what they want.

Forte said so, because they didn’t have the maintenance section for this meeting, will they have to do a reading of that for the next meeting. Ryan said yes. Forte said OK.

Ryan said they can still do a second reading unless they want to do, he means, if it’s confusing, they can do another first reading. But he’ll add that in there, if they want to adopt it next time or wait till the meeting after that, that’s no problem. But this just came up Friday after Smith and Ryan talked about it. Smith said he really wanted to expand it relative to the international property maintenance codes, which they adopted, so that’s why it wasn’t in the ordinance. So, Ryan apologizes for that, but he didn’t, he thought they were mostly concerned about the HDC and, but that’s, you know, they could do that.

Forte said yeah, she thinks it’s good to have both the maintenance and the HDC because obviously they want to cover both. Ryan agreed.

Smith said and the changes Ryan talked about are enough that he thinks another first read. Ryan said yeah, that’s fine, sure. Smith said before they go to the second reading. Ryan said OK.

Forte asked if they needed to make a motion or anything like that. Ryan said no, but he appreciates the comments. He’ll get them that so they can take a look at it. They’ll talk about it. First reading. Forte said all right.

Forte said before they adjourn – Rodgers said yeah, that was the last thing – Forte asked if she could add to the agenda for the next meeting to talk about Buffalo parking, unless it’s already being handled with the engineer. Casey asked her to say again. Quisenberry said the striping. Forte said can she, yeah, sorry, striping on Buffalo. Roth asked Casey if he could hear. He said no. Roth said he cannot hear you. Forte said sorry.

Quisenberry said he thought that was addressed at a meeting last fall, that as soon as the weather permitting, the Buffalo striping was going to be fixed as well as the crosswalks right out here, but they couldn’t be done during the cold winter and his impression was they’ll take care of that as soon as the weather allows them. Forte said OK.

Smith said it was a beautiful summer-like day, but it’s not, it wasn’t like that last week, it was snowing still. Two different groups. The company that paved Depot is responsible for coming back and doing the tape, heat, you know, applied tape for the crosswalks and the arrows at the end of the street. And then the restriping of Buffalo and anywhere else they need it, is the company that did it last year. They’ll just have them come back. They know that they need to come back and said no problem, they would come back in the spring. But they too said they need to have good dry pavement to apply to. So, as soon as they have that and Smith can reach out to them now and see can we get on the books to do that. Forte said OK, thank you.

Rodgers asked if there was anything else.

No additional comments.

Agenda Item #11, Adjourn (Video time mark 1:19:08):

Rodgers asked for a motion to adjourn the meeting.

Motion by Roth; second Forte.

Motion to adjourn the meeting passed by unanimous voice vote.

Rodgers said all right. The meeting is adjourned at 8:19.

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