Introduction:
Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them, but this is a rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not). Mayor Eric Haven has also cut people off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act), another rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not).
If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but the mayor cut your comments short, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.
Links to the video recording and the council packet can be found at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted between brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.
Agenda Item #1, Call to Order
No formal call to order.
Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:12):
Pledge said.
Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:29):
Eric Haven said everyone may be seated, wished everyone a Happy New Year, and asked Jennifer Speagle (former Clerk) and/or Karen DeLorge (new Clerk) take the roll.
Eric Haven, Gary Casey, Bruce Fuller, Laura Rodgers, and Amanda Wakefield (Forte) were present.
Mike Lamphier and Sue Wylie were absent.
Agenda Item #4, Resolution: City Clerk Appointment (Video time mark 0:00:57):
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- Motion – City Clerk Appointment (page 3/40 of the council packet)
- Karen DeLorge Resume (page 4/40 of the council packet)
Haven said that the first thing on the agenda was a resolution to receive a new city clerk, Karen DeLorge. Haven suggested that Jonathan Smith (city manager) introduce DeLorge, noting that her resume was in their packet.
Smith said that they are doing this right up front so that DeLorge can be the clerk for the rest of the meeting. (Gesturing), Smith said that this is Karen DeLorge; DeLorge said it was nice to meet you. Smith said that DeLorge is his recommendation for appointment as city clerk. She has experience at Independence Township, spent a few years at Independence Township working various functions. Her mother-in-law was the clerk, not that that’s necessarily her [DeLorge’s] strength, but she worked closely with her mother-in-law that was the clerk at Lake Angelus for many years. So, Smith thinks that she brings quite a bit of experience to the table. She also worked at Feldman Auto Group, the dealership out on Dixie Highway, working with them for the last few years. So, she has quite a bit of experience. She’s already kind of (unintelligible) to go online in many ways. Smith is really excited to bring her recommendation to council.
Haven asked if DeLorge wanted to say anything to them.
DeLorge said that she’s happy to be here. Haven said good. DeLorge said she is honored and will do her best. Haven said he knows that she will, that’s good, and he thanked her for coming. Haven thanked Speagle for helping DeLorge kind of get her feet on the ground a little bit in the last week or so here. DeLorge agreed. Haven said they are excited to see her. DeLorge said Speagle has been a big help. Speagle said that DeLorge will be amazing; she is great. Haven said that’s good.
Haven said that Smith’s recommendation comes highly appreciated. He asked if any council members wanted to ask DeLorge or Smith any questions.
Forte welcomed DeLorge to Clarkston. DeLorge thanked Forte. DeLorge said she loves it here, she loves downtown. Forte said that we are happy to have DeLorge. DeLorge thanked Forte. Haven said excellent.
Haven said that we have a resolution in front of us to receive DeLorge as our new clerk [note the agenda uses the word “resolution” but the document is titled “motion”]. Haven said he needed a motion for that resolution.
Motion by Forte; second Casey.
Haven asked if there was any discussion.
No discussion.
Haven said that maybe Speagle should take the roll. Smith said that it’s the last time Speagle will take the roll.
Casey, Forte, Fuller, Haven, and Rodgers voted yes. Motion carried.
Haven said that they are as unanimous as they can be with two council members missing. Haven congratulated DeLorge and welcomed her to the city. DeLorge thanked Haven.
(Applause.)
Agenda Item #5, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:04:07):
Haven said that the next item on the agenda was the approval of the agenda. Speagle said they needed to swear DeLorge in first. Haven asked if Speagle was going to do that, and Speagle said yes.
(Unintelligible comments from Speagle to DeLorge.)
Speagle asked DeLorge to raise her right hand while Speagle administered the oath.
Oath: “I, Karen DeLorge, do solemnly swear that I will support the constitution of the United States, and the constitution of this state, and I will faithfully perform the duties of the office of the Clerk in and for the City of the Village of Clarkston, County of Oakland, State of Michigan according to the best of my abilities, so help me God.”
Speagle congratulated DeLorge; Speagle and Evelyn Bihl [administrative assistant] gave DeLorge a hug. Haven said now it’s official.
(Applause.)
Speagle said DeLorge could have Speagle’s seat. (Laughter.)
Haven said that he would accept a motion to approve the agenda as they have been given it.
Tom Ryan [city attorney] interrupted and said not that anybody can speak in public comment, we always welcome public comment on any item, but he doesn’t think that Item 10a [regarding Owner of the Mill Pond Inn B & B], he doesn’t think that we should be involved in a discussion regarding this topic because it’s under active pursuit and investigation by the city. He doesn’t know where it’s going to end. If you want to have a subcommittee or meet with these folks privately or something, you know, but he doesn’t think we should be discussing this in an open meeting because we don’t know where this is going to go, if anywhere.
Haven said so, this is a request to address – (interrupting Haven), Ryan said that he thinks it should be under public comment because it says discussion, and Ryan doesn’t think we should be having a discussion. Ryan thinks people can say whatever they want to in public comments. If the person wants to do it, that’s fine, but Ryan doesn’t think they should be discussing something when they don’t have all the information. It’s not the appropriate forum for that. Haven said he understands and agrees and asked should they move it to public comment then, #6, is that what he’s saying? Ryan said take it off the agenda and allow that person to speak in public comment if they want to. Haven said alright, OK. Ryan said that’s all he’s saying. Haven said that they will move it from the latest agenda. It’s no longer 10a. 10a will then be a resolution for an electrical hookup, and if anyone would like to speak in public comment, they can. That’s going to be next on our agenda, but right now, we’re approving the agenda as amended that way, and that’s your point. Ryan said yes sir. Haven said amend it that way, to remove 10a and if there’s a desire to keep it in public comment, those people can do that.
Haven asked if there was any other amendment to the agenda before they approved it.
No additional comments.
Motion to approve agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #6, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:07:24):
Haven read the rules for public comment and said that he would receive public comment at this time.
Carl Szasz:
A man [later identified as Carl Szasz] said that they were Item 10. Haven asked him to step up to the podium. Szasz said that the reason why they asked to be included in the agenda was because of the three minutes and they wanted to be able to just speak to this topic. This has been a topic that has been brought up a little bit. He’s prepared some comments, and after that, he was hoping that they could just answer any questions council has if there are any.
Haven said we won’t have a dialogue at this juncture, but he appreciates the comments. Szasz said sure, absolutely. Haven asked if Szasz thought his comments would be significantly longer than three minutes. Szasz said he didn’t know, probably not. He’s just got some written comments. Haven said if he wanted to leave anything with them, he could certainly do that too. (Szasz made an unintelligible comment.)
Haven asked the speaker for his name, and he said it was Carl Szasz [spelling taken from the city’s draft posted meeting minutes]. Szasz is the managing partner of Millpond Inn Bed & Breakfast. Szasz said they have seen much speculation and rumor arise about them ever since the city council took action on banning short-term rentals in the community. With the ban on short-term rentals, some people in the community, many of which have currently or previously owned short-term rentals, have tried to lump them in with that debate. However, as you know, Millpond Inn is not a short-term rental but rather a bed and breakfast that has operated in this community for about thirty years. Prior to that, it operated as a funeral home. Millpond Inn operates under a court-appointed special use variance that gives it the right to operate the inn irrespective of any ban on short-term rentals.
Szasz said that that he recognizes that due to the iconic nature of the Millpond Inn, there’s been a lot of interest and speculation as to the change of ownership and how they are running the inn. His purpose here tonight is to give an update on how they are running the inn, and by extension, the larger Clarkston community, answer any questions, and hopefully dispel any rumors or untruths (unintelligible).
One of Szasz’ partners, (unintelligible) is also here with Szasz, who resides at the inn, serves as their innkeeper, and is going to help Szasz answer questions tonight that are operational in nature that Szasz may be unaware of. After Szasz’ short presentation, they hope to alleviate any of council’s concerns. Their goal is to have good relations with their neighbors, this council, and the community. Reputation is of the utmost importance to them in the hospitality business and they want their good reputation to remain untarnished.
Continuing, Szasz said as they may be aware, a group of eight like-minded investors bought Millpond Inn in October 2020 from Joan and Buck [Kopietz]. As the managing partner of Millpond Inn Bed & Breakfast, it is Szasz’ responsibility to operate the inn. Shortly after buying Millpond, they spent roughly five months rehabbing the inn and over $250,000 on improvements, upgrading and beautifying the space to what it is today. Almost all of these changes were to the inside of the inn, to redesign and change the flow of how people interact, to offer social distancing, and some 2020 COVID-19 pandemic related updates.
Szasz said that their business plan was to preserve but update this iconic bed and breakfast to a space where people could visit but also be able to do so without the need to expose themselves to other guests and have their own private space. Millpond Inn went from one space to five separate suites, one of which is their innkeeper suite, that could be rented out separately or together for larger groups. [Unintelligible whispered conversation between Forte and Ryan and a paper was passed between them.]
Szasz said that when they bought the inn and the business, occupancy was running dangerously low. Their market research showed that this was due to the open floor plan and the requirement for guests to be in close proximity to other guests that they did not know. While this was fine before the pandemic, after 2020, travelers expected to be able to come to the Millpond and not have to interact with people outside their party. As a result of this, they modified the way that they serve breakfast and interact with their guests. Because of these changes, their guests today can rent out the entire inn, minus a small section for the innkeeper. They can rent out two suites, or all four, or one at a time, and they don’t need to interact with other guests outside of their party. They’ve implemented touch-free check ins and check outs, as this has become the gold standard for their industry.
Szasz said despite them doing everything within the confines of their special use variance, there have been a number of things that have happened over the last few months that have necessitated this meeting. First of all, they’ve had people look in their windows, which makes their guests uncomfortable; trespass on their property; and make up rumors about them, many of which they’ve learned from the meeting notes from the council. As an example, during the rehab phase of their ownership, they upgraded several suites to include wall-mounted fireplaces. By going online, and seeing these online, the community have gone to the building department claiming that they have put in fireplaces without the necessary permits. They were then contacted by the building department and asked to explain why they had done construction without a permit. They invited the inspector to the Millpond. They were completely open and transparent about their use of a licensed contractor and your building inspector agreed that electric fireplaces are cosmetic in nature, do not require roof venting, and don’t need any type of a permit.
Szasz said since that incident, they’ve gotten a letter from this council asking them about their use of marketing websites such as Airbnb and incorrectly claiming that this is somehow a violation of their special use variance. Advertising on Airbnb for a bed and breakfast is not uncommon, since Airbnb is an advertising website for bed and breakfasts. They also are saddened to see one of their neighbors to the south claiming that someone came to her front door to ask for some salt. They want to be good neighbors and wish that she had simply come to them to address any issues of their guests knocking on her door. Their neighbor also claimed that there is nobody ever at Millpond Inn and she feels unsafe. While this may be her perception, Szasz wanted to address this rumor directly. They have a property manager that manages Millpond Inn and works with their guests directly through the day. They have an innkeeper, Jack, who uses Millpond Inn as his primary residence and is available at night or after hours. Jack also works two minutes from the inn so he can run home if he needs to at any time if there’s a problem. If their neighbor ever feels unsafe, she can simply call Amy or Jack 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They have sent her a letter – (interrupting Szasz), Haven said just so Szasz knows, he’s well over three minutes. Szasz said yes, he’s almost done. This speech was written with the anticipation that he would have more time because they asked to be part of the agenda. He knows that was changed at the last minute here, but he’s almost done. Haven said he would like to interject say just keep it brief; he’s sure the other council members would agree.
Continuing, Szasz said they have sent, they don’t ever want to make anyone feel unsafe in their own home, and they have made modifications to their guest book and have instructed their guests not to go next door but rather contact the staff if they need anything.
Szasz said they are looking into modifying some of their monitoring capabilities, such as decibel measuring equipment, to ensure that their guests aren’t too loud or disruptive to surrounding neighbors. With that in mind, and he’s almost done, they are not aware of any more than one incident where one of their guests knocked on a neighbor’s door. They have good relations and a collaborative relationship with all of their other neighbors, including the neighbor to the north and the neighbor behind them. There are many people that walk downtown for any number of reasons and any of them could be knocking on their neighbor’s door. They do not believe that she has anything to fear from them. Any claim by any neighbor that they somehow didn’t realize that they were living next to an operating business in the case of Millpond is false.
Szasz said that Millpond has been in operation for long before many of their neighbors were there, and while it’s important that you understand that they are very open to serving the community and making sure that they’re as accommodating as possible, they do believe that some of the scrutiny about them has kind of gone too far in the sense that it looks like scrutiny as to whether they have a right to exist which Szasz doesn’t believe they have to justify. They are under a court-ordered special use variance that gives them the right to exist. They are not a short-term rental. They don’t want to be classified as one. Szasz is here to answer any questions or concerns that this body has as to that classification, and his colleague Jack, who is also their innkeeper, is also here as well. Again, they want to be as transparent as possible.
Szasz said that’s the end of his prepared comments and he’s prepared to answer any questions they have if they have any.
Haven thanked Szasz and said that they are taking this under public comment which doesn’t require them to respond at all, so that’s to Szasz’ benefit as well. Haven said that he thinks on the advice of counsel, they will reserve any questions or comments for discussion at another time. Szasz said sure. Haven thanked Szasz and said that unless Ryan would like to direct them any differently, he thinks that now is not the time to discuss it. Haven said it was a late minute notice to everyone that Szasz would be on the agenda, so again, Haven does truly thank Szasz for coming because he thinks it’s time to hear from them. Haven thanked Szasz again.
Haven asked if anyone else had public comment at this time.
Haven asked if anyone else had public comment.
No other public comments.
Public comments closed.
[Video time mark 17:32 – additional public comments from Chet Pardee, read by Haven.]
Chet Pardee:
Haven said this is a public comment that Mr. Chet Pardee has given to them for council reading on 1/9/23.
Pardee says good evening, good year, new questions, and same focus.
What training will be provided to the two council members not yet appointed to the finance committee? They will replace Joe Luginski and Al Avery who were strong contributors based on their personal understanding, professional experience, and their perspective of how the city worked. The appointed council members will be developing the city’s ’23-’24 budget for May presentation and help determine whether a millage issue will be on the November ballot.
What caused the sinkhole in Washington and Main parking lot and what are the implications for further damage and additional cost to repair?
Will the city have liability for damages caused by the delay of the East Washington sewer repair, similar to the West Washington sewer damages twenty years ago?
Is the cost of the East Washington sewer repair likely to go beyond the $19,800 estimate previously known based on the television camera examination yet to be done? Is the East Alley storm drain repair a city responsibility?
The repair of the seven paver aprons on Main Street was the number one capital expense project in the current budget based on safety. What’s the current estimate of timing for repair?
Will Oakland County accept reimbursement from the city as they assume responsibility for the dam and adjusting the lower Mill Pond water level? What anticipated cost should be included in the 2023/2024 budget?
How much of the $164,193 in capital project funds in the current budget is expected to be spent in the current budget year on what specific projects?
Haven read the signature block of the letter with Pardee’s address, noted that he’s usually in Florida at this time of year and usually online, so Haven reads this on his behalf. Haven noted that they don’t have to respond to this, although he’s asked several questions and if anyone wants to respond or ask a question, you can’t ask a question of Pardee obviously, but if Smith wants to respond to anything, or if he doesn’t, that’s OK.
Smith said he would comment on the replacements to the finance committee. We need council members that are interested in the finance side of our business, and we would like to get that appointment made maybe at the next meeting. We usually start our meetings in February, so give that some thought if you’re interested in being a part of the finance committee and helping establish the budget. We’ll try to make that decision in the next meeting. Haven agreed and said OK.
Haven asked if anyone else would like to address council during public comment.
No additional public comments.
Agenda Item #7, FYI (Video time mark 0:16:57):
Haven said he didn’t have anything for this agenda item unless council or someone in the audience does.
Ryan said that Chet Pardee had a comment. Haven asked Smith if Pardee was on the line [calling in remotely.] Smith said he thought he was and asked Pardee if he could hear them. [More whispered discussion between Ryan and Forte, and a paper was passed between them.] Haven said if Pardee is not there, Haven will be happy to read Pardee’s comments since Haven had a copy of them (that he obtained from Casey). [See additional comments inserted under Agenda Item #6 above.]
Agenda Item #8, City Manager Report (Video time mark 0:20:26; page 5/40 of the council packet):
Haven said that the next item was the city manager’s report. He said that he didn’t have any For Your Information items. Haven said that the city manager’s report is in the packet, and for those of you who don’t have that, Haven said he would just allude to paragraph headings.
The dam risk reduction grant has been applied for to help our situation there on the Mill Pond.
A Depot Park River Walk grant [application] is being prepared for a Spark grant from the state. [More information on Spark grants can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/mrsasv3m.]
The Depot Park skating rink is in place and we wish we had colder weather for the time being so we can actually get out there and skate, but it’s beautiful. Haven thanked the Optimists and Jim and Ann Degen for their generous purchase of twenty-five bales of straw to act as our nice warm place for the kids to sit, you know, around the skating rink.
January is Radon Action Month. If you have anything like that in your basement, if you haven’t been monitored for that, you might want to do that.
City services change. We will no longer be issuing dog licenses, Haven believes, but we will be having notary service.
Haven said he’s being very cryptic and asked Smith if he would like to embellish that at all.
Smith said just on the radon tests. It’s to help our residents test for this. We have a lot of old homes in the city. Smith said not that radon is limited to older homes, but he thinks it is important that our residents should consider testing their homes. Smith has worked with the county to obtain some kits and they will sell them in the office here for the same $5 as the county is selling them, just to make it easier to come in and get one. So, we’ll be doing that throughout the month of January. Haven thanked Smith and said radon is certainly present here and they have had radon removal in their home. There’s a little meter you can get that’s very inexpensive to just kind of continually monitor, but it is something to be considered for cancer prevention.
Agenda Item #9 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:22:34):
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- 11-14-2022 Final Minutes (page 7/40 of the council packet)
- 11-28-2022 Final Minutes (page 9/40 of the council packet)
- 12-12-2022 Draft Minutes (page 11/40 of the council packet)
- 01-09-2023 Treasurer’s Report (page 13/40 of council packet)
- 01-02-2023 Check Disbursement Report, 12-01-2022 – 12-31-2022 (page 14/40 of the council packet)
- Thomas J. Ryan, P.C., December invoices (page 21/40 of the council packet)
Haven said he would entertain a motion to accept their consent agenda. The consent agenda is for the draft minutes of 12-12-2022, the final minutes of 11-28-2022, the final minutes of 11-14-2022, and the Treasurer’s report for 01-09-2023, and that’s all in this packet. We try to handle it expeditiously under one motion, so would anyone like to move.
Motion by Fuller; second Forte.
Haven asked if there was any discussion about this or did anyone want to remove anything from the consent agenda and discuss it separately.
No discussion or comment.
Motion to accept the consent agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #10, Old Business
Item 10a – Discussion: Owner of Millpond Inn B & B (Video time mark):
[This item was removed from the agenda at the request of the city attorney.]
Item 10b – Resolution: Electrical Hookup for The Depot Road Parking Lot Kiosk (Video time mark 0:23:23):
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- Resolution – Electrical Hookup for the Depot Road Parking Lot Kiosk (page 24/40 of the council packet)
- Traffic & Safety Control Systems, Inc. Cost Estimate (page 25/40 of the council packet)
- Huchinson’s Electric, Inc Cost Estimate (page 26/40 of the council packet)
- Aerial View, Depot Road Parking Lot (page 27/40 of the council packet)
[This agenda item was renumbered to Item 10a from 10b due to the removal of Item 10a at the request of the city attorney.]
Haven said Item 10a on the revised agenda involves the electrical hookup for the Depot Road parking lot, and Smith has given them some information. It looks like we will be going over our $18,000 slightly to get this done, so we need to approve that overage. Haven asked Smith if that’s basically what they’re doing here. Smith said essentially, yes. Haven said by resolution, the new amount being $21,100 as opposed to $18,000 because we extended, you’re going to rod it around the – (interrupting Haven), Smith said they need additional boring around the building here out to the kiosk location. We have utility poles in the parking lot and thought initially that it would be easy enough to tap into those utility poles, bring down, put a meter on the poles. It is possible, but one little (unintelligible), actually it’s an electric, our dedicated electrical contractor said that would actually be more time-consuming and cost prohibitive to do that. He said it would actually be cheaper to directionally bore under the parking lot from the location at the far side of the parking lot, under the parking lot all the way to the back of our building here where it comes into our electric meter that serves this building. He says you’ve got plenty of room on your electric panel and that’s going to be the most cost-effective way to do this. So, it seems like a huge task, but he said really it isn’t. With a directional boring machine, he says he can start at this end and come within a quarter of an inch of your location out there. It’s amazingly accurate.
Haven said 175 feet, is that what he understands this to be? Smith said he didn’t really have the exact footage, but he bets it’s every bit of 200 feet. Haven said OK. It’s interesting. Smith said maybe that’s in his bid. Haven said yes, his bid was 175 under the parking lot to the new kiosk location. Smith said he knows; he comes up the corner of the building and is going to run across the building with conduit because we have a concrete slab in the back now. Haven agreed.
Smith said so yes, that is his recommendation, and he guesses the only other option would be to do a solar powered kiosk which if you’ll remember we tried on Main Street, and it was unsuccessful. It just couldn’t get enough power to run it on a consistent basis. It was constantly running out of power just using solar power. Haven said it will be paid for out of the parking fund. Smith said exactly. Haven said we are making money on our parking lot these days. Smith said we are. Haven said that this will help us make more, this installation.
Haven said he would entertain a motion to adopt this resolution.
Motion by Fuller; second Casey.
Haven asked if there was any discussion.
No discussion.
Haven asked DeLorge to take the roll.
Fuller, Forte, Casey, Rodgers, and Haven voted yes. Haven said the resolution is adopted.
Agenda Item #11, New Business (Video time mark 0:27:10):
Item 11a – Resolution: East Alley Storm Cleaning (Video time mark):
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- Resolution – East Alley Storm Drain Cleaning and Televising (page 28/40 of the council packet)
- Engineering Drawings, East Alley Storm Drain (page 29/40 of the council packet)
- Metro Sewer Cleaners/Metro Environmental Services, Inc., Quote and Agreement for Vactor/Video Inspection of the East Alley (page 32/40 of the council packet)
- Pipek Infrastructure Services Proposal, Cleaning and Televising Approximately 200 Feet of Storm Sewers on East Washington Street and a Connecting Alleyway in Downtown Clarkston, Michigan (page 35/40 of the council packet)
Haven said this is also a resolution. He said that we are calling it new business, but it’s been around for a while. Haven said he didn’t know what Smith’s reflection on this was, but this is for the East Alley behind Main Street on the north end of the block there, he would say, behind 2 South Brunch House, behind Essence, and the Society Boutique.
Smith said that the drawing is a little bit cluttered. In this schematic here, you see East Washington up at the top of the screen, and then these three blocks that you see coming down the left side there, the hash marks, the first one is 2 South [Brunch] House (unintelligible) that name now. That’s the first building. The second building is Essence and the bake shop. That’s all in one building. Haven said the bake shop. Smith said it’s all owned by one owner. Haven said OK. Smith said that the third building is Society.
Smith said the storm drain in question is this one in the east alley that we call East Alley. It starts at Society behind their back entrance and works its way out to East Washington. Now, it’s a very sloped parking lot. It’s a big parking lot behind the Woodshop and Society and all that, that takes a lot of water down to that slope to, if you’ve been in that parking lot, you’ll know there’s quite a bit of slope to it, it goes down to this drain right behind Essence, or behind Society, and then it makes its way out to the street.
Smith said that the problem is that storm drain is the old school clay tile. Forte agreed. Smith said that the structures that go up to the surface are hand bricked. They’re not the poured concrete structures that they put in today. These are hand bricked and mortared in, every one of them, and those bricks are literally falling out of the wall and into the drain. It’s only four feet deep. You can stand in it, it’s not a problem, but the line is breaking up, and we just thought as one last check, before we excavate this and pursue quotes of course to excavate and replace it, before we do that, why don’t we clean it out, clean the bricks out, and televise it so we can see exactly the condition of this before we embark on a complete replacement.
Smith said that there is a lining. You can have companies come in and line the inside of the pipe. In most cases, they say that is not the cheapest way to go. Sometimes, believe it or not, it’s almost cheaper to dig the pipe up. Considering it’s only four feet down it’s not a huge excavation project.
So, they, this is HRC [Hubbell, Roth & Clark] is recommending that we do this. Let’s see how bad it is. Maybe it’s a candidate for lining, but he doesn’t think so. They think it’s going to need replacement. The bare minimum, the structures that are made out of brick and mortar, they need to be redone. They won’t bring in a concrete one. They’ll probably bring in a mason to do it the old way, but it needs to be made secure and good for another sixty to eighty years. So, we recommend that we do this camera, televising, but before we do that, before the robot can make its way down the pipe and televise it as it goes, we need to get the bricks and stones that have fallen in, we need to get those out of the way. So, they first go in and grab these bricks and stones and go back and take it to the far end where somebody grabs them and takes them out. So, they’ll clean it first and then they’ll televise it, and the televising will tell us everything we need to know about the condition. It does a full circle of the televising (gesturing) so that you can see the condition of the inside of the pipe, is it cracked, is it giving way as we suspect it is.
Smith said so the cost of this, we’ve got two quotes, or he should say that HRC on our behalf got two quotes. One was $2,080 and one was $2,400. Their hourly rates were not that different. It was just the number of hours. One company thought they needed four hours; the other company thought they needed five hours. So, that’s primarily the difference in price between the two.
Haven said it’s a fixed bid though, right? They wouldn’t come back to us later and say they needed six hours and adjust it? Smith said no. Haven said they have to do it for that. Smith said he’s recommending that they go with the lower price quote, and it’s $2080.
Haven said before they proceed any more, he wanted to get a motion to adopt the resolution and asked of someone would like to so move.
Motion by Rodgers; second Fuller.
Haven asked if there was any discussion about this.
Fuller asked Smith if he knew if that storm drain ties into the system that pours into Parke Lake, right there where the Mill stream comes under Main Street by Parke Lake. Smith said no, it won’t go north. It will go south. Main Street is all geared to go to the south. Fuller said OK. Smith said so, anything north of the spillway, anything north of there on Main Street, will go into Parke Lake because it will come down, drop into the spillway, and out to Parke Lake. Anything south of there is going to continue on down and drop into the Clinton River (gesturing), the Clinton River near Laurelton.
Fuller said when they do this work, he’s driven back there a few times and you feel like you’re going to bottom out of your car when you go through there, so when they do that repair, then they’ll do some pavement repair as well to bring that level up? Smith said our city engineer map from HRC is recommending that we take up the whole asphalt. It’s in bad shape. Fuller agreed. Haven and Smith said repave it.
Smith said now, it’s not all on the city though, and this is one of Pardee’s questions in his public comments. Fuller and Haven agreed. Smith said will the city be responsible for this. Well, that alley is privately owned, if you didn’t know that. Haven agreed. Smith said that the businesses own their respective portion of the alley, right up to where Bill Basinger lives and some. Those three business owners own that alley. It’s not a city street, it’s not a city alley, we don’t use it for city trucks. People use it as though it’s public, and it is. The owners have never put up a sign saying, “private land, keep out.” They’ve always allowed it to be used for egress from that parking lot, but officially, it’s privately owned. Where the city cost comes in is where it leaves the far wall of the 2 South Brunch House wall, where their property ends everything beyond that as you’re going out into Washington is ours. Haven said that’s the 1980 [$19,800] that Pardee was referring to originally. Smith said roughly $19,000 of the, just on a percentage basis, we just estimated that on a percentage basis on footage.
Haven said we would probably prorate this televising as well, right, once we decide on the overall cost of it. (Casey made an unintelligible comment.) Haven asked if it will be a procedure that they will be billed for, right, basically, the businesses, the three businesses as well as us? Smith said well, he was proposing that we pay this additional engineering cost. Haven said he doesn’t mean televising, he just means the whole project, he means it’s going to be prorated for the businesses. Smith said yes, exactly. Haven said so Smith is suggesting that we add this $2,185 to our $19,000 number. Smith said no, he wasn’t, but we could. Haven said exactly, just absorb that or pass it on, one of the two. Smith said it’s a city engineering cost. Haven said again, council would have a say in that if you wanted to change (unintelligible) plan, but that’s what he –
(Interrupting Haven), Rodgers asked do any of these companies, would they, would either one of these companies be responsible for the continuation once it’s been televised, or is that a separate entity that does that? Smith said separate. That’s all they do is camera work. That’s all they’ll do. The interesting thing is this schematic that Smith had up on screen a minute ago, these documents have been provided to three companies that do this kind of work. So, those have been sent out and we’re looking to get quotes from those three companies, but we don’t have them yet.
Fuller said Smith said that it’s usually cost prohibitive to like epoxy those pipes and then replace them, is there any concept of what we are getting into here in terms of a (unintelligible) that all collapsed inside and (unintelligible) waters going through it. Haven said we are proposing digging the whole thing out, right, and put new, not put a liner in there. Smith said that’s what we are proposing (unintelligible) put the asphalt – (interrupting Smith), Fuller said all the way to the Clinton River. Smith said no. Haven said to the street. Smith said just from that storm drain behind Society all the way down to Washington. It’s only about – (interrupting Smith), Fuller said so that’s all, OK. Smith said that’s it. Fuller said OK. Smith said that’s all we would be replacing. Fuller said but this scope, televising as you say, is all the way down to the Clinton River. Smith said no, he’s saying that’s where the water goes, all the way down to the Clinton River, but we wouldn’t televise that far. Fuller said OK. Smith said we would only televise out to Washington, the portion that we repair and replace. Haven said repair. Smith said once you’re on Washington, they say it’s a much bigger storm drain because that’s bringing other water in.
Fuller said so they want over $2,000 to scope, to send a little robot thing in there to look at that. Smith said it’s cleaning it first. Before the robot can even get down there, they have to clean it. Fuller said OK, so he doesn’t walk through sludge. Smith said that’s the more laborious task. Fuller said he sees. Haven said Star Wars. Fuller said (unintelligible) through there. Smith said you know what’s really pressuring this to move forward on this is the owner of Essence/bakeshop – (interrupting Smith), Fuller asked if that is Mr. Donnay? Smith and Haven agreed. Smith said Donnay, David Donnay, they’re getting significant water in the basement. Haven said they are, he didn’t know that. Smith said it’s a regular flow into their basement. Society was getting water – (interrupting Smith), Haven said they fixed it – (continuing), Smith said they had a waterproofing company come out and do some waterproofing that stopped their problem. Smith said he doesn’t know if it’s just coincidence but after Society’s problem got solved, the problem next door started. Smith doesn’t know if there’s a connection, but they called the same waterproofing company who came out and said the difference is your foundation is stone, rubble, rock, and Society’s is cinderblock. We were able to waterproof Society’s foundation, but we cannot, we will not, even approach waterproofing a basement with this rock. So, Donnay has been calling Smith regularly now, saying what are we doing about this because he’s got a regular flow and he’s got a renter down in that space, exercise – Fuller and Haven said Pilates. Smith agreed. So, he’s very frustrated, he’s not blaming it on us, but he’s saying we need to help him get a solution here so that’s what – (interrupting Smith), Haven said we were delayed two years because of COVID right, didn’t this get bumped off? Smith agreed and said that was part of it, but we’re trying to coordinate a solution here. It’s not all our bill but we are trying to coordinate it as one of our businesses, three of our businesses. Haven asked if we could make any of this back by selling CDs or anything. (Laughter.) Haven said our mark-up would be too great. Smith said he didn’t think so. Fuller said tour of the sewer. Smith said of the storm drain.
Rodgers said so Smith is proposing that we pay for the whole televising of it, but that whatever is determined necessary after that will get prorated as – (interrupting Rodgers), Smith said prorated based on – (interrupting Smith) Rodgers said prorated based on how much (gesturing). Smith said yes, exactly.
Haven asked if there was any more discussion.
Casey asked how soon that would happen. Smith said they could, they work year-round in this kind of work. They said there’s nothing from stopping them from doing this in the middle of January. We won’t be ready that soon. It will probably be March by the time we get all the quotes back and then more importantly, we have to get an agreement from the three business owners what their share, their bill will be.
Rodgers asked if they were in agreement that they would help pay for that. Smith said that he has talked with Terri Milliken (spelling?), owner of Society, and he’s talked with David Donnay, owner of Essence and the bakeshop. He has not talked with Brian, the owner of 2 South Brunch House about this yet. But it would be important if they all (unintelligible) their fair share. Rodgers agreed. So yes, he has talked with two of the three. Casey said (unintelligible) has interest though. Smith said absolutely and included in that would be the cost of repaving the alley.
Haven said so, this will tell us where we are and we’ll be able to get bids and so on, so the contractors know exactly what they’re looking at, right? They’ll get better bids probably as a result of this too. Smith said it’s a prudent first step before we embark on this, bring in an excavator.
Haven asked if there was any further discussion on council.
No discussion.
Haven asked DeLorge for a roll call.
Rodgers, Haven, Fuller, Forte, and Casey voted yes. Haven thanked DeLorge and said that the resolution passes.
Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 0:42:46):
Haven said the next item on the agenda is adjournment and asked if anyone would make a motion to adjourn.
Motion by Rodgers; second Casey.
Haven said a motion and second right away and asked if there was any discussion about that.
No discussion.
Motion to adjourn by unanimous voice vote.
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