Introduction:
Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.
Agenda Item #1, Call to Order
The meeting was not officially called to order. Eric Haven said, “let’s open the meeting, shall we, with the pledge to the flag.”
Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:02):
Pledge said.
Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:25):
Haven thanked everyone for coming and said they may be seated. Karen DeLorge (clerk) said that her laptop was (unintelligible) not working. Haven said then they’ll go slowly, they’ll talk slowly. Haven asked DeLorge if she would mind taking the roll, please.
Gary Casey, Bruce Fuller, Sue Wylie, Laura Rodgers, Mark Lamphier, Amanda Forte, and Eric Haven were present.
Haven said that’s good.
Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:51):
Haven said he would entertain a motion to approve the agenda they were given.
Motion by Wylie; second Rodgers.
Haven said those female voices down at the end there. So, they have a motion and second to accept the agenda.
Haven asked if there was any discussion and did anyone want to pull anything or change anything.
No discussion.
Motion to approve the agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:01:20):
[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them, but this is a rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not). Mayor Eric Haven has also cut people off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act), another rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not).
If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short by the mayor, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]
Haven read the rules for public comment and asked if anyone would like to address council.
Haven recognized Chet Pardee.
Chet Pardee:
Pardee stepped up to the podium and apologized for being two hours later in his distribution. Haven said they appreciate it anyway.
Pardee said good evening and provided his name and address.
Pardee said his expectations of Clarkston city officials are:
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- Be transparent.
- Follow the rules.
- Maintain the city’s streets and sidewalks.
One and two are generally OK; number 3, not so much.
The public likely feels that city council is doing OK based on road repairs in the village. Oakland County Road Commission topped Clarkston Road last fall in a way that didn’t disturb the gasoline plume. The Michigan Department of Transportation has recently repaved Main Street. Using federal government ARPA [American Rescue Plan Act] funds, the city will repave Depot Road referencing the Sheriff’s Department 2,000 vehicles per day study. Yet this fall, the Oakland County Road Commission will repave South Holcomb, White Lake Road, and hopefully West Washington, encouraged by triparty funds.
The City of Clarkson has not been able to pay for sidewalk or street repairs for several years. The sidewalks were last repaired in 2019. East Miller Road was the most recent street repaired by the city before 2019. The current budget was established with the fund balance at its minimum. The sidewalk repair quote of $73,000 that Jonathan [Smith, city manager] told us about in the last meeting was significantly above the $44,000 budget amount. Repairing the seven Main Street paver aprons and repairing West Miller was omitted from the current Capital Improvement Plan, but the Planning Commission will update to include it.
The parking fund is currently running below its expected revenue, in part due to the Washington Lot kiosk repair in progress. The mayor’s suggestion regarding grinding and filling sidewalks should be considered, particularly for Robinson Court with several residents requiring walking assistance.
Sewer bills for residents will increase in November. The City of the Village of Clarkston will be faced with how to pay their share of the expected $60-$77 million bond for the Pontiac Sewage Plant. If it’s $60 million, Independence Township expects their share at $6 million, and the city’s likely share to be $600,000 based on REUs [Residential Equivalency Units].
Property owners on the Mill Pond pay annual assessments. If the dam requires repair, there will likely be additional assessments. When Smith discussed the need to include paver apron repairs with needed sidewalks repairs in downtown at a million dollars or more, the mayor said, “looks like a special assessment.” It is not clear who would be assessed – those in downtown or all residents. It’s not clear.
Haven said OK and thanked Pardee. He asked if anyone had a question for Pardee.
Fuller said he was wondering, and Smith is not there, weren’t they doing some sidewalk repair on Main Street last week because they blocked off part of the road to get a front loader, pulling up pieces of that, does Pardee know from talking to Smith. Pardee said he knows from talking to the contractors. Fuller asked if that is the beginning of the overall project. Pardee said no, they are a long way from that. There isn’t enough money. The only quote that Smtih had was the $73,000 quote. What occurred just south of 90 North Main was four sidewalk sections driven by putting a gasoline, a gas line in to the east. So, they had dug up, and that was really people’s restoring. They put very nice-looking sod in and four of the sidewalk sections. Fuller and Haven said OK, thanks.
Haven said he had one other one that was received by Cory Johnson. He’s going to read this. He came with a public comment.
Cory Johnston:
The planning commission agenda for August 7, 2023, has 6.A. “Discussion on moving forward with a bike safety lane through the city” and item 7.A. “Discussion on removing the parking deferment for the city’s zoning ordinance.” The planning commission agenda for September 5, 2023, has 6.A. “Off-Street Parking Ordinance – Discussion on updating the off-street parking ordinance.”
Unlike city council meetings, no other information was provided beyond the agenda, so the public has no knowledge of the details related to these issues.
The minutes for both meetings provide very little history and little about what was discussed. There is, therefore, no public record of the issues discussed since planning commission meetings are, to the best of Johnston’s knowledge, not recorded and not part of what Independence Television records and makes available.
Johnston was intimately involved with the Complete Streets movement, walkability, and bike-ability for many years when he lived in the Village of Clarkston, served on the city council, and was part of an advisory committee to the planning commission. He provided council/planning commission member Forte a brief history of what has been done in the past as her city email address is available while no one else on the planning commission is.
[Haven said that’s because Forte is the liaison to the council; that’s not a planning commission address. Haven continued reading Johnston’s email.]
Johnston said his wife, Robyn Johnston, served on the city planning commission and zoning board of appeals for over ten years, including the time when the current parking deferment requirements were implemented in the zoning ordinance by the city council after the planning commission consulted with the city planner. Yes, this ordinance provision has been, “inconsistently applied and enforced by the city” as stated in the planning commission minutes. Actually, it has been completely ignored for all the downtown restaurants who have had inadequate or no on-site parking but never had to do any deferment or pay in lieu of parking as required by the city’s ordinance while other businesses did. This is not an ordinance problem but rather the city failing to follow the rules adopted by the city council. Johnston will leave it up to them to debate the why.
Regardless of that issue, which has been ignored for more than sixteen years, as someone who no longer lives in the village and finds it difficult to attend meetings, and in support of those in and out of the city who may have the same problem, Johnston asked that they consider implementing two changes that should cost nothing but greatly improve public awareness and possible involvement as the planning commission says they want:
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- Make meeting support information available in the same manner as is done for council meetings. It must exist, so why not make it available?
- Record planning commission, historic district commission, and zoning board of appeals meetings as done for council meetings, at least in audio format. They did this for historic district commission meetings when he was the chairmen, it cost nothing to do, and they were used in legal proceedings.
- Provide contact information for the commission and board members, or at a minimum, an email for that commission and board so the public has a way to participate and be informed.
Johnston closed by thanking the council and providing his name and mailing address.
Haven said Johnston lived here a while back.
Haven said he thinks Johnston’s comments here are cogent. They are covered by Independence Television for these meetings, but not for the other meetings. Haven said he understands we have a subsidy to cover our costs for Independence Township which helps us with that. Haven understands Smith is also discussing this issue with Independence Television. Haven does know, as Johnston alluded here, there were audio recordings made of historic district commission meetings in the past, and that’s like he says, easy enough to do, so that can be done. So, Haven thinks it should have some review of it. He thinks it would be clarifying for the public. Haven thinks the comments are reasonable and cogent, and so, can he just have DeLorge pass along, you know, this to Smith and then they can talk about it more. Haven knows it’s on his radar. Smith is aware of it, but again they have to look at the costs and everything, but Haven thinks public information is very important.
Forte said she just wanted to address one of the points, just so he can know if he’s watching or listening. Haven said they are not online. Forte said yeah, so basically, he alluded to a few things and the next step for them is to talk to the planners and basically get their opinion on some of the particulars. Haven said about communication. Forte said no, no, no. About the specifics. The parking deferment. Haven said great. That’s underway. Forte said yeah, just to make sure that like, they’re not stepping into bad territory by not applying, or not like following the law or the rules, so to speak now when they’re still in our ordinance, so that’s why they don’t really have the next step. They’re getting the recommendation so that’s why there isn’t more information in the notes. They’re kind of waiting for them. Haven said there will be. It will be forthcoming. That’s what Forte is saying. Forte agreed. Haven said he knows Derek [Werner, planning commission chair] is talking to Ben Carlisle [the city’s contract planner] about this right now. Forte said she just wanted to address that. Haven thanked Forte.
Haven asked if there was anything else.
Forte said if Johnston had any more questions, he could email her.
Haven said OK and thanked Pardee and Johnston for their public comments.
Haven asked if anyone else would like to make a public comment tonight.
No additional comments.
Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:11:55):
Item 6a – 25th Anniversary Taste of Clarkston Event
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- Taste of Clarkston flyer (page 3/45 of the council packet)
Haven said OK, hearing none, let’s move on to the next item on the agenda, which is Item #6 and that’s For Your Information.
The large one, of course, is the annual Taste of Clarkston, and there are these flyers on the back table as well if you’d like to see them. But this is a big event. They close down Main Street for this, and everyone has a good time. It’s very welcomed and sponsored by the Chamber of Commerce and others who are listed on the sponsor sheet and so just to all be aware that Sunday, October 1st, we’ll have party in town so y’all come.
Haven said that’s the only piece of For Your Information that he has as far as his packet is concerned. Haven asked if anyone else had any announcements they’d like to make.
No additional comments.
Agenda Item #7, City Manager Report (Video time mark 0:12:36; page 5/45 of the council packet):
Haven said OK, hearing none, let’s move on to Item #7. That’s the city manager’s report. Haven said he would read this again as well since Smith is not here. And again, this is part of a packet that you can pull down and copy or just read online if you’d like to, but for your information, Haven will read it here. Smith has one, two, three, four items on here.
Haven said the first one is a road paving update which Mr. Pardee sort of alluded to. To keep them updated on the road repaving plans, Smith communicated in the last council meeting they now have a tentative timing for the repaving of Depot Road, South Holcomb Road, and White Lake Road, and that time is Saturday, October 21st through Sunday. Haven said he was sorry, Saturday, October 28th. So that’s that one week, the 21st through the 28th of October. Smith is still trying to include the repaving of West Washington, but this is still a to be determined issue at this time. Stay tuned for future updates. So, that’s our road repair schedule.
Haven said the Taste of Clarkston, October 1st, he just talked about that. The Chamber will run, let’s see. Haven said let him just read this. On October 1st, the Clarkson Area Chamber of Commerce will be hosting their annual Taste of Clarkston event on the downtown blocks of Main Street. This will be the 25th anniversary of this great event. The event runs from noon to 6:00 p.m., but please be aware that Main Street, M15, will be closed to vehicular traffic between Walden and Clarkston Road as well as parts of Washington, Church, and Buffalo will also be closed from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., so it’s a pretty long time. Shuttle buses will be available, picking up at Clarkson Elementary and Junior High, Renaissance High School, and Clarkston High School. Come hungry and ready for fun.
Haven said all right. The next item is Clarkson’s City of the Week. This was on WCSX this week. Because of the Taste of Clarkston, that event, we’re the City of the Week, and they’ve been promoting us all week long. Online, there’s several interviews and so on, which is kind of fun. Jim O’Brien, who’s the disc jockey who was here making the interviews, he lives on Clintonville Road, so he’s not very far from here. So, he’s very familiar with Clarkston. And so, it was a fun time being with him this week.
Haven said the last one is a thank you from Smith on behalf of the Clarkson Community Historical Society. Smith thanks the Clarkson community as well as the city council and staff for supporting the Art in the Village event last weekend in Depot Park. This event is critical to the historical society, funding over half of their annual budget. Thank you for making it a success, respectfully submitted, Jonathan Smith. Haven said that is really a highlight, as is the Taste. And so, we’re in that season of enjoying our town a lot with these events and Depot Park and on Main Street and so on. It’s really a privilege to live here, and this is part of the benefit of living in the Clarkson region.
Haven said all right, so those are the only For Your Information, well, that’s city manager, sorry, city manager items, and Smith is not here. He’s on vacation, a well-deserved vacation because of Art in the Village. He and Toni [Smith] are taking a vacation, so that’s why he’s not here tonight. But if you have any questions or thoughts, you can bring them up perhaps at the next meeting with regard to what he has stated here.
Agenda Item #8 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:15:59):
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- 08-28-2023 – Final Minutes (page 6/45 of the council packet)
- 09-11-2023 – Draft Minutes (page 9/45 of the council packet)
- 09-25-2023 – Treasurer’s Report (page 12/45 of the council packet)
- 09-13-2023 – Revenue and Expenditure Report for the Period Ending 08-31-2023 (page 13/45 of the council packet)
- Carlisle/Wortman August 2023 invoices (page 22/45 of the council packet)
Haven said the next item on the agenda is a motion to accept their consent agenda. This is a packet, basically, that is put together every meeting for them. It includes the final minutes from two meetings ago, the draft minutes from the last meeting, and the Treasurer’s report, in this case for 9/25/23. So, they consolidate them so they can dispose of them as a unit, or someone can say break out something and ask a question if they want, but Haven will entertain a motion to accept the consent agenda as it’s delivered to them here.
Motion by Fuller; second Wylie.
Haven said they have a motion and second and asked if there was any discussion about their consent agenda, those items.
No discussion.
The motion to accept the consent agenda as presented passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #9, Old Business (Video time mark 0:16:59):
Haven said all right. Page 2 as Paul Harvey would say. And those of you who remember Paul Harvey. Haven, Wylie, Lamphier, and Pardee raised their hands. Haven said “see, show of hands.”
Haven said all right, Item #8 [#9] is old business, and we don’t have any of that, so new business is, he’s sorry, Item #9.
Agenda Item #10, New Business (Video time mark 0:17:05):
Haven said #10 is new business. And they have two items on #10.
Item 10a – Resolution: Election Agreement with Oakland County and Independence Township for Elections Starting in 2024 (Video time mark 0:17:09):
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- Resolution – Interlocal Agreement for Election Services (page 24/45 of the council packet)
- Early Voting in Michigan flyer (page 25/45 of the council packet)
- Agreement for Election Services Between Oakland County and Charter Township of Independence and City of the Village of Clarkston (Page 26/45 of the council packet)
- Exhibit A – Early Voting Plan (page 33/45 of the council packet)
Haven said the first is a resolution for an election agreement with Oakland County and Independence Township for elections starting in 2024, and he’s going to defer to DeLorge because this is kind of her domain if she can explain this to them. Haven said he can read it, does she want to do that first, does he want him to read that resolution. DeLorge said go ahead, absolutely. Haven said that will give her some platform. This is a resolution-interlocal agreement for election services.
(Haven read from the resolution.)
Haven said this is a resolution, so they’ll all vote on it independently.
Haven said he would first of all entertain a motion to adopt this resolution and asked if anyone would like to so move.
Motion by Wylie; second Forte.
Haven said they have a motion and second to adopt the resolution and asked if there was any discussion about this.
No discussion.
Haven asked DeLorge if she wanted to fill in any details that he didn’t cover here. DeLorge said sure, absolutely.
DeLorge asked if everyone understood what early voting is. It was a proposal to – Haven said a provision – DeLorge said that we the people voted in and said yes to. A lot of people, when she mentions the early day voting, they don’t know what she’s talking about. So, it’s nine days of consecutive voting. Now to run that herself, she would have to run it nine days. Then she would have Monday to get everything ready for the actual election on the eleventh day. So 44, actually 45, communities partnering right now with Oakland County. Seven are not. So, 45 have already signed the contract, including Independence Township, which she’s being partnered with. So, we’ll share the cost. And we’ll share, they offer the location. It just makes it easier for their voters. They can go. We’ll be extended, we’ll be open on the weekends, Saturday, Sunday.
Rodgers said will there be, if we’re part of this partnership, will there be X number of places you can go, like it wouldn’t necessarily be town hall. DeLorge said for the nine days of early voting, correct. Rodgers said OK. DeLorge said you’ll have specific places you can go, and everything will be posted. Everything will be very transparent. She’ll have everything posted on Facebook, the website, and the kiosk to get it out there so that everyone knows where to go. And they’re, she thinks, Oakland County, this is all very new, but she thinks they’re going to send out postcards, actually, also. Rodgers said so, the whole premise is that all these independent towns and cities don’t have to pay for the same thing, that we’re sharing resources – DeLorge said correct – (continuing) Rodgers said and having just a designated number of places to go available, OK. DeLorge said that was correct. Haven said so, it’s efficiency. DeLorge said right. Haven said it’s a nice consideration now for helping people vote.
Wylie said she assumes this central location has not been chosen yet. DeLorge said Brady Lodge. Wylie said oh, that’s good, OK. DeLorge said she accepted that one. She didn’t actually think that was a bad drive from here, from our city.
Rodgers asked if we have to pay anything to be in this partnership. DeLorge said yes. We don’t have to buy the equipment. If she were to go alone and say, you know, she’s going to do this alone, the one piece of equipment was over $5,000. Just for one piece of equipment. And then she would have to pay people to help her run it for nine days. So, what we do is, we split with who we’re going with so then she’s only paying for half. So, instead of paying for nine days all by herself, she’s paying for the election workers, maximum seven people, and so that way, she’s only paying for 3.5 people.
Wylie said that actually doesn’t sound fair because Independence Township has so many more voters than we do; it seems like it ought to be prorated. DeLorge said right, and she’s spoken to also, and she’s looking into that. Wylie said OK. She realizes DeLorge may not have much say in the matter. DeLorge said well, because the county says, you know, you can do this, or you can go it alone, and then she’d be looking at twice the expense. Wylie said right, plus there’s a lot of other issues too. DeLorge said right.
Haven asked if there is a timing deadline on this. He knows Cari [Neubeck, Independence Township Clerk] was talking to DeLorge about (unintelligible crosstalk between DeLorge and Haven) before the council. DeLorge said (unintelligible) last week, yes. Haven agreed. Haven said if they didn’t do this right now, in other words, if they waited one more council meeting or for some of the answers to be forthcoming that DeLorge was asking about, would that be problematic for the response time. DeLorge said it would be. Haven said so we need to make a decision, right?
Wylie said it doesn’t change how she’s voting on it one way or the other, she was just trying to clarify some things. DeLorge said no, absolutely. (Unintelligible crosstalk between DeLorge and Haven.) Haven said to continue to lobby for a better ratio count. DeLorge said she absolutely agrees. She has the same questions, and it doesn’t take effect this year. Wylie said that’s right. DeLorge said so, they’re looking at August, the August election, and the November election of the next year. If we look at it, if we go into this headfirst and we don’t agree with how things, that they don’t seem fair, then it’s back to the drawing board again. We’re not locked into anything. Haven said good. That’s good to know. OK.
Haven said all right, this is a resolution to accept. So, he has a motion to adopt from Wylie and a second from Forte.
Haven asked if there was any discussion now, having heard DeLorge’s explanation.
No discussion from council.
Haven said OK, hearing none, would DeLorge take the roll please.
Pardee raised his hand, and Haven recognized him for a comment.
Pardee said so, the packet that DeLorge provided shows a lot of really good information, and so, there are 45 communities that are going to participate in (unintelligible) sites. And we are participating in the site that’s actually closer to us. Brady Lodge along with Independence. DeLorge said there’s multiple sites. Pardee said two, right. The Brady Lodge and Waterford Oaks. DeLorge said Waterford Oaks, that is like a larger central location that other cities will be using too. Pardee said 45 communities. DeLorge agreed and said they can use that location. She doesn’t pay for that. Pardee said the other information that DeLorge distributed shows that there are 13 precincts of Independence Township – DeLorge agreed – (continuing) Pardee said participating and one of ours – DeLorge agreed – (continuing) Pardee said the number of registered voters are essentially 30,800. So, Paree finds the 50% split unfair on a data basis. (Fuller made an unintelligible comment.) Pardee said the other thing that he thought he read was that this is going to take place in 2024, but he didn’t think that there was a need to approve until later in this calendar year. DeLorge said because the county is getting funding from the state, they want the contract now. Pardee said OK. He thought that it was in the paperwork, it was a different day.
Fuller said but there is a provision to opt out as well at any time. DeLorge said she agrees. She spoke with the county, and so far, that was her answer. And then they said, well in August, in November, we can review it, but right now it’s a 50/50 split. If she doesn’t agree with it – (interrupting DeLorge), Rodgers said so, if they decided to go to the Waterford one, would we be like the 46th person and split that 46 ways? DeLorge said she’s not allowed to do that. They’re not doing it. Anyone can go there, but her station is at the Brady Lodge. Rodgers said, oh, so we can’t get in on the 45 people using that. DeLorge said no. She said she knows, it’s confusing. It’s all new too. This is all new. For even the most seasoned clerks, it’s very confusing.
Pardee said so, we’re one of 14 precincts at Brady Lodge. Haven said it’s for early voting only, voting the day of is still here. DeLorge agreed. Haven said so, you can go here. That’s just advance voting. DeLorge said right, that’s what she’s saying.
Pardee asked DeLorge if they gave her any idea of what 50% might be if we’re incurring 50% of the cost. DeLorge said well, they’re paying for all of the equipment. They’re paying for all the ballots. Pardee said the ballots. DeLorge said yes, that’s part of the contract. Pardee said OK. DeLorge said and then she has to pay for election workers. So that’s $18 an hour for a worker and $21 for a chairperson, which is one person. Haven said over nine days. DeLorge agreed. Haven asked how many hours is that. (DeLorge made an unintelligible comment.) Haven asked if there is an amount. DeLorge said she’s sorry if they can’t understand her; she has a mask on. Haven said she’s fine. Wylie said so, eight days. It’s 8:30 to 4:30. So, it’s eight hours, nine eight-hour days. So, 72 hours. Haven said to count the ballots. Pardee said $20 an hour? Wylie said DeLorge said $18, $18-something.
Lamphier asked if this would just be one worker per hour. DeLorge said it’s seven workers, and she would pay for half of those workers. Wylie said seven workers there each day. DeLorge said yes. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Haven said exactly. They’ll be sitting around while we pay for them.
Pardee said if they’ve got their packet with them, go to page nine of DeLorge’s (unintelligible). Wylie said yeah, that’s what she’s on. That’s how she gave you, that’s why she said 72 hours. Pardee said so, the seven workers at Waterford Oaks serve 45 precincts. The seven workers that Clarkston Independence serve 2 municipalities. He’s sorry, it’s 45 municipalities.
Fuller asked if this number is required. Is it required seven people, because it’s pointing out to the fact, they’re the same regardless of the number of people that may show up in the number of, you know, municipalities. DeLorge asked if he meant the election workers. Fuller said yeah, is it required that that many people be there? Could you just have like say two people show up. DeLorge said no. Fuller said you’re required to have seven people there. DeLorge said you have to have different people at different stations. Fuller said yeah, exactly. So those people, it’s not like you can cut back on hours, manpower is mandated, so it’s unfortunate, maybe, but it’s not debatable. Wylie said right. It’s not debatable.
DeLorge said and the problem, you know, she said at first, well, she’ll do it herself, you know, she’ll work it. She doesn’t care, she can sleep when it’s over, right? (Fuller made an unintelligible comment.) DeLorge said then you have to have all new equipment though. It’s different equipment. She can’t use what she has. It’s a different, it’s a whole different like system for these nine days that has to communicate with the state. So, it’s a different laptop, it’s a different everything. It’s a printed off balance and everything. It’s all very different.
Wylie said basically, we’re being presented with this contract, so take it or leave it and. That’s it for her. That’s it. Take it or leave it. Haven said well, it’s either going to happen at one of these centers or happen here, right? DeLorge agreed. Haven said you have to have nine days.
DeLorge said right. So, if she did it here, she would have to have it sectioned off. They couldn’t have any meetings during that time or anything like that. It would be the nine days of consecutive. She would have to buy all the equipment and handle everything herself and run things herself and that’s why, as you see, 45 communities aren’t going with it because – Haven said the capital investment is horrible. You just can’t have this all.
Haven said all right, let’s just call the roll call.
DeLorge said it’s very frustrating.
Wylie said she does have to say one thing. How do they get 45 communities at Waterford Oaks and only two communities here in the Clarkston area. Delorge said she thinks they’re using that as a central location. She’s not paying part of this 45. Wylie said OK. Again, it doesn’t matter.
Lamphier asked if we could become part of that central location, just merge. DeLorge said not that she was told. Every community, like Lake Angelus is a very small city, and they’re going with Waterford. They’re not at this Waterford Oaks. It’s just the two, just like us. Wylie said oh, OK, she’s got it. She sees. So, Waterford itself may have, OK. Again, it doesn’t really matter. DeLorge agreed. Wylie said we go to the contract or not.
Pardee said seven workers at Waterford, seven workers at Brady Park [Lodge]. Wylie said go to Brady Park [Lodge] for a shorter line. Pardee agreed. (Unintelligible side conversation between Haven, Fuller, and Wylie.) Pardee said he thought Brady Lodge is for one precinct, he thinks thirteen for Independence Township. He thinks we’re getting handled in a way that we shouldn’t get handled on a logical math basis. In the split with Independence Township, 50% doesn’t make sense based on precincts. Haven said he agrees. DeLorge said she reached out to Independence Township also. Pardee said it doesn’t seem right, but we have no other option except (unintelligible crosstalk). DeLorge said she reached out to Independence Township, and that’s what she told her. “You’re saving money going with me, so what is the problem?”
Wylie said it’s a brand-new thing, so maybe after the August election is over with, things will be a little bit clearer and maybe – Haven said well, it’s next year. It’s a year from now. Wylie agreed. Haven said a lot of time. All water over the dam, you know.
Wylie said she thinks they should just vote on it.
Haven asked if everyone was ready to vote, OK. Haven asked DeLorge if she would please take the roll.
Lamphier, Haven, Fuller, Wylie, Forte, Rodgers, and Casey voted yes.
Haven said OK. Resolution adopted.
Item 10b – Resolution: String Lighting Installation in Depot Park (Video time mark 0:34:23):
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- Resolution – Depot Park Ambiance Lighting Installation (page 36/45 of the council packet)
- Quote from Hutchinson’s Electric, Inc. (page 37/45 of the council packet)
- Quote from 1000Bulbs (page 38/45 of the council packet)
- Quote from Kendall Electric (page 40/45 of the council packet)
- Quote from American Lighting (page 41/45 of the council packet)
Haven said OK, the last thing on the agenda is a resolution for Depot Park ambiance lighting installation, and he’ll read this for them.
(Haven read the resolution.)
Haven said OK, so there’s the resolution. Would someone like to move for adoption.
Motion by Rodgers.
Haven asked for a second.
No response.
Haven asked if someone wanted to second this.
Fuller said he would second it so they can discuss it. Haven said sure, yeah, that’s the way it works. OK, there is a motion and a second to adopt and now discussion.
Haven asked Fuller if he wanted to discuss. Fuller said yeah, so, the lights that are out there currently, he has a couple of questions. They operate at certain times and certain lumens because obviously (unintelligible) and then every night from some certain time to a certain time. Haven said he didn’t know, and DeLorge might know, the maintenance. She may not know. DeLorge said she didn’t know.
Haven said these were strung, (to Rodgers) they’re individual strings, right? Rodgers said they were bought initially for the Christmas Market last year. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Rodgers said bought from Costco and strung up around the trees, and then they got so many positive comments, really no negative comments that they, she, heard, anybody else heard, that brought forward that they really liked them. And it also has a safety factor to the park when they’re out. Fuller said (unintelligible) is safety. Rodgers said so, in speaking with the electrician, they said that they really, to save the trees, should not be strung around trees because the trees expand, they can break the, Rodgers said Haven could correct her if she’s wrong – (Haven made an unintelligible comment) – the light cords could break and anyhow, in a whole discussion, they decided that putting up the steel – Haven said cable – Rodgers said cable, thank you, and then putting the lights around that cable was a was a better choice and also the lights that are in this are better lights, more outdoor lights, than just say the classical brand that you would use on (unintelligible). So, not only are they, would they replace the ones that are out there, but they would also encompass the playground, so that the events such as the Christmas Market or anything else would be helping, you know, could be like around that. One of the things that was said during the market was that their kids wanted to play on the playground. It was dark. It was dangerous. Whatever.
Fuller said so the night, are these lights on a timer now, or are they just turned on for certain events? Because it seems like right now, he doesn’t see them up. Rodgers said they are not on a timer to her knowledge right now. Haven said no, this will formalize the process. This will formalize the process. It will be sort of a combination of timer and photocell, that kind of thing. So, it’s totally controllable, you know. They can have them on and off if they want to. It’s not on a controller from up here. It’s just kind of a plug in, more residential kind of lighting system and Smith wants to formalize it, so it’s really controllable. So that’s why they went with Wendell Hutchinson, our city (unintelligible) for contractor and Terry Summerlee [spelling?] has reviewed the whole thing and made recommendations for the bulbs. He’s an industrial contractor. Out of the line of animals, and everything, you know. Fuller agreed.
Haven said but we also, in mind of human safety, they’ll basically follow the pathways. It’s kind of like a loop on both sides, right, but it will give us a whole lot more illumination for holding events during nighttime hours. That was really, really obvious during the Christmas Market last year. They were running the hay wagon out there in the dark. They’ll need a lot more, not only safe, but beautiful.
Rodgers said they were left on for the skating rink. Haven said people wanted those on for the skating rink. (Rodgers made an unintelligible comment.) Haven said that’s an upgrade.
Casey asked how long he envisioned that they’re going to run into the night. Haven said well, that’s been discussed. The park is open till 10:00, OK, and so that may be the jurisdiction. They certainly could advise their city manager what they’d like to see, OK, but they have control. Once you get a system in place, you have controls.
Casey asked if there is any provision for minimizing the light pollution that is shining upward. Haven said yes, it’s shining downward, and you see it in your packet. Rodgers said it is interesting, is that what was like kind of proposed initially before this was, more actually a brighter lighting and that would have made a lot, this is considered ambient lighting in reality. Haven said décor kind of lighting. Fuller said that would be nice because he shares Casey’s concern about this, about light pollution. Wylie said she does too. Casey said it’s significant around here. There’s way too much. You can’t even see the Milky Way anymore. Wylie said these do not look like what she’s seen before. Forte said these are dark sky lighting, right, which is what you would want. Wylie said they would have a minimum, a little shade on them to keep the light from going up. Forte said and even if they did have a shade, just by having these in the park most of the year, we would be contributing so, she means, she thinks they’re lovely like for during the winter market, but she would say that should be the extent. Because safety wise, oftentimes you don’t want to light things and make people have a false sense of security, especially if the park is geared towards a certain age, maybe it’s, she doesn’t know, kindergarten until elementary school kids, yeah, like beyond the hours of the park. She means, if they have them up for the winter market, she thinks that’s perfect, but she thinks that’s – Haven said so skating rink, she’s not – Forte said for like the skating rink, but they stay up, those ones. Lamphier said summertime until 11:00. Forte agreed. Fuller said the problem is the park closes at night. Forte agreed. Haven said it closes at 10:00.
Wylie said another issue is if it’s open or if there’s lights on till 10:00 at night. There are residents along there and having lights on attracts people to come and hang out the park and make a lot of noise. If she lived there, she would not want to hear a lot of kids and people making noise, picnicking, whatever, until 10:00 at night. Wylie said she goes to bed early.
Forte said you can come in, like the nice thing about keeping it sky rated most of the year, is you can go in the summer and look up at the stars. Like if your eye has to adjust to the lights, it’s very hard, and obviously we wouldn’t be contributing towards that environment. So, like the park is a great dark sky environment because of the lighting right now. Wylie asked Forte if she was speaking professionally, because she’s a professional with this lighting part of the landscape. Forte said yes, absolutely.
Fuller said so the motion then is it’s a good idea to put in better lighting but control its operation. Haven said this is what you get when you have a system; you get controls. (Unintelligible crosstalk between Fuller and Haven). Haven said you can prescribe control when you have a system.
Wylie said to her, it’s an awful lot of money to put in lighting. It sounds like people, she hasn’t heard from everybody, but it sounds like people are in favor of keeping it lit for the Christmas Market and ice skating. They’re talking $11,000, and she knows this is all part of the big park plan. It also seems a little bit like putting the cart before the horse. To her, they should be doing the big stuff first and then see, OK, now we have these big, if we do the big installations, now let’s see about lighting now. Not doing the lighting now and tearing things down later when there’s a pavilion here, or a bandstand here, or we need to light this up. She thinks that – (interrupting Wylie), Rodgers said she doesn’t think the lighting would be anywhere where they would put a structure. It’s surrounding this part of the park here and then the playground just surrounding it. There’s already lighting in the gazebo, and there’s already like a streetlight right outside the gazebo. She doesn’t know what they call that. It’s a bright light. Fuller said like a farmland light. Very bright. Rodgers said so, you know, these we could turn on and off. (Fuller made an unintelligible comment.)
Forte said yeah, she would like to see maybe some stakeholder engagement before they, like pass this, like what do people actually want in the park, more than just the park committee. Haven said OK. Forte said she would also like to see a formal plan of where these lights are specifically going and also if they’re going to do the dark sky rating. Haven asked Forte if she could define that. Forte said the dark sky rating is actually part of a specification for lighting, so it’ll be in the specs for a light. It’s like a national standard. Haven said and layout. Forte is saying layout. OK. And what else did Forte ask for? Forte said stakeholder engagement in the community.
Rodgers asked how would she go about doing that? Forte said you can do it through, like you can engage public comment through writing, basically putting it in like the Clarkston News. You could do a survey, you can open, obviously the Friends of Depot Park meetings are always open to the public, but they’re during the day. So, just making it possible for people to just come and be, like (unintelligible), I like lighting here, this is where. I think would be most beneficial.
Wylie said Pardee has proposed a number of times at the library, using Julie Meredith, using her services. She’s done something like this sort of thing before. Forte said yeah, libraries are often public forums. Wylie said that would be another possibility to get public feedback.
Haven said that’s on their agenda. To get a public forum in the library. Forte said she thinks more information is always better before you make a big investment.
Wylie said she was shocked when, and she hasn’t bought lighting, but she was honestly shocked when she saw how much money this is going to cost. Forte asked if she thought it was cheap. Haven said (unintelligible) it’s not for your backyard is it. Wylie said, no, no, it’s not.
Wylie asked how much it cost to get the Costco lighting out there. Rodgers said $1,000. Wylie said so, that was all the money they gave Rodgers for that. Rodgers said yeah, the rest of it was all from community support. Forte asked if they still work; could we use them again? Rodgers said they could use them for that area, but it seems kind of silly to spend another $1,000 for the tear down, which was the biggest, if there was a negative at all about the market, it was that the playground was not lit, but they can take another thousand dollars and do the playground. She doesn’t know if that would be wise.
Wylie said (unintelligible) if there’s snow on the ground, that might change things. She could have a night when the playground is unusable because of ice and snow. It is somewhat weather dependent. The whole thing is going to be dependent.
Forte said she thinks they should table this until they have more information.
Haven asked if anyone else wanted more information.
Rodgers asked if Cara Catallo had her hand up. Catallo said she did. Haven recognized Catallo.
Catallo said she was just going to suggest why not look into event organizations or companies that would be able to provide lighting, like they do it at a wedding or something like that. It seems like an awful large expense to spend for one specific night. She feels like there must be a way that an event organizer, she obviously doesn’t throw huge parties or even small ones, but like there must be lighting if it’s so critical for kids to play. But she shares the concern that she doesn’t know if it’s a good idea to be encouraging kids to play on the playground in the dark anyway, and she also went to the last meeting at the Friends at Depot Park. She had no idea this was going to be a resolution. She knew that they were walking around to talk with Terry Summerlee. But she didn’t, when she left that meeting, all the residents that are on that committee, which is maybe half of the committee, except she wasn’t sure where Haven stood, but voiced that interest in having community engagement, because the community should have a part in this and what matters most to them. So, she was sort of surprised that this was already on the resolution and that it costs so much money, but she would suggest, you know, humbly to wait and engage the community and see what they think and if they think that’s a good way to spend that money. It’s a lovely gift from the Optimists. She would love for them to continue giving it to us. But if, like if it’s, you know, spent on lighting, it might be like, well, why are we, you know, it just seems like the community might have a greater desire, and she would suggest maybe having a formal plan drawn up with charrettes and have a good sense of what all can go in this park, because frankly, she was there for Art in the Village and in her mind, she’s like, that’s a beautiful park. She’s super proud of this park. She doesn’t know, like she’s content with the way it is, frankly. So, it just seems like a lot of money, and she would think too, that it would be something that should be passed when the city manager is here to say what, answer some of the questions, because another one of the members of the Friends of Depot Park who doesn’t live in the village was concerned about the nocturnal animals and wondering about a timer, and when she looked through the material there was nothing that suggested these were on a timer or that that would be a consideration.
Haven said the hardware quote. The hardware states it from Wendell Hutchinson. Catallo said she didn’t see anything like that specifically. Haven said let’s see what he has here.
Pardee asked if he could follow Catallo’s comments. Haven recognized Pardee.
Pardee said he was surprised two years ago a primary expense in Depot Park was improving the security system, but the money that was put in the budget two years ago didn’t get spent. The number that he remembers from two years ago was $6,000, so in this budget there’s $8,000 to improve the security of the park, and he’s just amazed that that isn’t the number one priority on their list, to assure the security of how people treat the park and how people behave in the park by having improved security systems. Haven asked specifically cameras? What is Pardee talking about? Or policing it? Pardee said it was Smith’s (unintelligible crosstalk). He believes they’re talking about more cameras. More cameras, more recording. Haven said and that’s part of the budget resolution, yeah. Pardee said it’s in the budget, right. But we’re going to blow right by. Haven asked Pardee why he thought so. Pardee said they’ve blown right by it for two years, that’s why. Haven said they have cameras on the building. They don’t have cameras in Depot Park. Pardee said there was $6,000 in the budget last year; they didn’t spend it. $8,000 in the budget this year, and he’s not heard about a plan to spend it. Haven said well, that’s an argument based on silence. Pardee doesn’t know what the plan is. Haven said he knows Smith cares about cameras. Haven knows Smith does things in sequence. So, we need to ask him that question, OK, but don’t pretend to say, state that you know it’s not going to get spent. Don’t say that. You don’t know that.
Fuller said take the resolution before them and then make a decision. He thinks people raised some really valid points, and Forte and her training and knowledge made some suggestions that Fuller thinks are very reasonable and should be considered.
Casey didn’t think there’s any point on the table. And they can always come back, yeah. They can always come back. Fuller said as a resolution at another time.
Haven said OK, they have a motion and second to vote on unless they go through another process on establishing a tabling.
Haven asked if they were ready to vote and asked DeLorge to take the roll.
Casey, Wylie, Forte, Lamphier, and Fuller voted no.
Rodgers and Haven voted yes.
Haven said OK, the resolution has not been accepted.
Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 0:53:41):
Haven said the next item on the agenda is adjournment.
Forte said she would make a motion to adjourn; Wylie second.
Haven said they have a motion and second and asked if there was any discussion.
No discussion.
The motion to adjourn passed by unanimous voice vote.
Resources:
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- Link to video recording here
- 09-25-2023 City Council packet