April 28, 2025 City Council Meeting

Introduction:

Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order (video time mark 0:00:01):

Sue Wylie said it is 7 o’clock. I’m calling the meeting to order.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (video time mark 0:00:05):

Wylie said everybody will please rise to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

(Pledge said.)

Wylie said thank you.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (video time mark 0:00:35):

Wylie said Item #3, excuse me, I put a mint in my mouth just before the meeting started. That was probably not a good choice. Item #3, we have a roll call. (To Jonathan Smith, city manager), Wylie said if you would please take the roll call.

Sue Wylie, Al Avery, Gary Casey, Amanda Forte, Erica Jones, and Ted Quisenberry were present.

Laura Rodgers was absent.

Wylie said thank you.

Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda – Motion (video time mark 0:00:57):

Wylie said Item #4 is approval of the agenda. I need a motion to approve of the agenda as presented.

Motion by Forte; second Jones.

Wylie said any discussion from council.

No discussion.

Wylie said anything from the public.

Nancy Moon said yes. I just want to say, if you’re walking near –

Wylie said we’re just doing the agenda right now, sorry.

Motion to approve the agenda as presented passed by unanimous voice vote.

Moon said Forte knows what I’m going to say. Forte said don’t worry.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (video time mark 0:01:28):

[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has occasionally decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them. In the past, members of the public have been cut off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act).

If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]

Wylie said Item #5, now, Item #5 is public comments.

(Wylie read the rules for public comments.)

Wylie said does anybody have public comments.

Wylie recognized Nancy Moon for a comment.

Moon said beware. One house just north of Forte, there is a skunk who will greet you if you go to walk by. So be careful not to get sprayed. Wylie said even in the daytime. Moon said in the daytime. Wylie said oh wow. It makes me wonder if anything’s wrong with that skunk. Forte said no, it’s being fed. Wylie said oh my goodness, don’t feed skunks. Forte said it’s a larger conversation.

Wylie said OK. Any other public comments?

Wylie recognized Chet Pardee for a comment. Wylie said well, we did receive that. City council got it by email. Parde said yeah.

Chet Pardee:

Good evening.

The blight on North Main is growing. The green house at the corner of Clarkston Road is abandoned. It adds to the four homes to the north, which all have city code violations. The code enforcement officer quit, apparently from lack of support from city officials. [City attorney] Tom Ryan has told me several times that I need to be patient. My direct experience with city action on the code issue was a letter that came from Tom [Ryan] and Jonathan [Smith] that directed that I have no further contact with Nick [unknown last name]. He’s the owner of the red and gray building. My thanking Nick for starting the painting process was interpreted as harassment in the document from Jonathan. Nick and I continued to greet one another as neighbors should.

Whether the abandoned green house is connected to the environmental risk from the leaking underground storage tanks across the street is not known. The service station was the development subject of the eighteen documents withheld by the city in response to a 2015 FOIA request that was finally resolved by Michigan Supreme Court. City officials did not want the public to know of the negotiations over the environmental risk driven by the plume from the underground storage tank leakage now memorialized by the four MDOT [Michigan Department of Transportation] restricted excavation markers on North Main. Nick is not able to use his well as a result of the tank leakage.

Streets and sidewalk repair continue to be a concern of mine. I’m asking Jonathan to present at the budget proposal time the specifics early in 2024 and ‘25 in terms of what were the capital projects in the budget and then what has been accomplished. What remains from the most recent road condition report identified as poor but not yet repaired? Of the seven Main Street paver aprons with safety risk, what is the expected cost and timing to repair? What is the West Miller sidewalk repair cost and timing for the 38 cracked sections with mud and puddle risk? Puddle risk to walkers currently protected by the faded white line.

The salary survey being used for the 2025-26 budget proposal uses Michigan Municipal League [MML] info of cities three times the size of the city and two and a half times the city’s budget. The author, Jeff Brumberg, advised that only three cities in the MML data have populations and budgets comparable to Clarkston. He chose not to answer my question that I asked, which was what did he think was the underlying issue that caused there only to be three cities? Thank you.

Wylie said Pardee and said he had perfect timing. We just ran out.

Wylie said anybody else have public . . . (To Smith), Wylie said yes.

Smith said I’d like to comment on some of Pardee’s comments. Wylie said OK.

Jonathan Smith:

First of all, the green house on North Main Street is not abandoned. We have talked several times with the owner. He has plans for that. He has trouble speaking English, but we’re working through that. And we’re getting his building permits that he needs to get started. So, his plans have changed a little bit. He was going to live in it himself. Now he’s making it available for his mother. But he still plans on completing the house and having some family member live in it.

You said there were four violations on the north end. There’s only one. It’s only the red house that hasn’t been completed. There are no other violations. Pardee said I’ll communicate to you about 180 violations – Smith said OK – (continuing) Pardee said and 174 and 172.

Smith said so, you talked about the street and sidewalks repairs. Last year, we spent over $77,000 on sidewalk repairs. We did not do, because of all the sidewalk work, we did not get as much road repair work done. It was road patching, but no big road projects. That’s going to change this year. We are going to be doing road projects this year. The plan is both Miller Road and East Church to get those paved this summer.

And you asked about the pavers on Main Street. This is over a million dollars. I’ve had an estimate prepared for $1.6 million to repair. It’s actually both the pavers and our sidewalks, which are not ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act] compliant. And that’s why I’ve applied now for three, one through the state and two through the U.S. government, grants, because $1.6 million is not something we’re going to come across easily here in the city. So, I am working on that, believe me. I’ve spent a lot of time, a lot of my own personal time, preparing these grant applications for these big, mega grants.

As far as the salary study goes, yes, we had to use what the MML salary study had available to it. And many of the municipalities that responded to the salary survey that MML did were larger than us. There were only three or four, five that were the same size as us. But what Jeff [Brumberg] did, and he’s explained all this in his preamble, is that he used this 25th percentile. So, he takes the very low end. Yes, he’s using data of a much bigger picture, but he’s only using the 25th percentile, not even the 50th, or the 75th percentile like a lot of surveys. He only used the 25th percentile. So effectively, he’s watered this down considerably. So, there is rationale. He did not answer you because he contacted me and said, Jonathan, I’ve already responded to Chet once. Should I respond again? And I said, well, you know, our contract with you has been paid and it’s done. He says, I’m happy to help, but at the same time, I’ve got to move on to other jobs. So, if you have questions about the data, talk to me, and I’d rather go through me than through him because he’s kind of done.

Smith said OK, those are my responses. Thank you. Wylie said thank you.

Wylie said any other public comments.

No comments.

Agenda Item #6 – FYI: (video time mark 0:09:46):

Wylie said OK, moving on to Item #6, FYI. And we have two FYIs.

Item A – CIDL [Clarkston Independence District Library] Spring Book Sale (video time mark 0:09:51):

• • Friends of the Clarkston Independence District Library Spring Book Sale Flyer (page 3/29 of the city council packet)

Wylie said Clarkston Independence District Library spring book sale is coming up. Members only preview night is Tuesday, April 29 from 3:00 to 7:30. The book sale is Wednesday, April 30 and Thursday, May 1 from 10:00 to 8:30. Half price day is Friday, May 2 from 10:00 to 5:30. And the $5 bag day is Saturday, May 3 from 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.

Item B – Municipal Clerk’s Week – May 4-10 (video time mark 0:10:17):

• • Invitation to Celebrate Professional Municipal Clerks Week (page 4/29 of the council packet)

Wylie said and we also have municipal clerk’s week is May 4 through 10. And I’ll just read the first paragraph.

(Wylie read the first paragraph.)

Wylie said and Angie Guillen [contract clerk], I believe you are a professional. Guillen said yes, ma’am. Wylie said and you’re a member of this organization. Congratulations, and thank you for that.

Wylie said any comments on FYI.

Wylie said oh, I do have one more thing. We still, we do have a opening on the Historic District Commission because we have a resignation. I have not heard anything about anybody interested. If anybody is interested, then spread the word. A lot of people have interests and concerns. And certainly, Clarkston is a big part of, the Historic District is a big part of the city. So, if anybody is interested in being on the commission, please let anybody on council get in touch with me, get in touch with Smith, anybody in city hall, and let us know of your interest. And we can consider you for an appointment to the Historic District Commission.

Agenda Item #7 – City Manager’s Report (video time mark 0:11:35):

• • 04-28-2025 – City Manager’s Report (page 5/29 of the council packet)

Wylie said Item #7 is the city manager’s report. And Smith has included that in the packet. We’ll let him talk about it.

Smith said so, at the last meeting, we talked at length about the traffic in town. And one thing that’s made, since our last meeting, and I give thanks right up front, or I give thanks to Independence Township because they were instrumental in bringing this here, to bring the pressure onto MDOT [Michigan Department of Transportation.]

Smith said so, they did agree to reopen the Southbound I-75 entrance from southbound M-15. So, people coming down Main Street from, say, Ortonville, they can get right on 75 South. They don’t have to do some, you know, maneuvers to make a U-turn because that ramp had been closed. So, that was driving a lot of the traffic back on Holcomb and Bluegrass and Miller. It’s better. Has it gone away? No, but it’s definitely better.

Smith said I did talk to MDOT about the possibility of putting a traffic light at Bluegrass and M-15 to allow the Bluegrass traffic some time to get out, because otherwise they’re just waiting and waiting and waiting for a little brief opening. And then they’re taking a risky chance to try and to get across. And it’s been some near accidents there, I understand. So, we talked to them about that possibility of traffic signal, temporary one, and they say it’s under consideration with their MDOT engineers. No further word than that, it’s just under consideration.

Smith said similarly, we had talked about the possibility of four-way stop at West Washington and Holcomb. And this was not so much to help Holcomb traffic as it is the Washington traffic trying to turn left onto Southbound Holcomb. And so here again, I appealed to the [Oakland County] Road Commission because this is technically their intersection. So, I appealed to them. They too have said it’s under consideration. No response yet from either MDOT or Road Commission on those two response, two requests.

Smith said and then I was able to get included on now the bi-weekly meetings where closures are discussed and complaints are addressed. So, I will be in those meetings. I was in the last one. It was a really short about ten-minute long meeting. But I will be a larger participant going forward.

Smith said Oakland County Assessing. So, the Oakland County Board of Commissioners, very much like raising the Sheriff’s hourly wages or their contractual costs, have also now weighed in on the equalization, or the assessing department. We use Oakland County Sheriff [Assessing] to do our assessing. As you know, we don’t have an assessor here. We, like a lot of communities, use Oakland County to do our assessing. They are going to be raising the price as it’s shown here from $9,000 a year to $18,000. It’s a more than 100% increase over the next three years. I got a call from [Oakland County Commissioner] Karen Joliat who was almost somewhat apologizing for this crazy increase, but nonetheless, it is what it is. We very much like the Oakland County Assessor. Rob Doyle has been great to work with. Greg [Coté, treasurer] and I just get a wealth of information from him. We’re gonna be talking to him about where we might be able to get some more services because Karen Joliat even suggested you might reach out to Independence Township. They’re looking to grow their assessing department to do other communities. They saw this coming, and they’re jumping on and trying to help. So, I’ve already talked with [Independence Township Supervisor] Chuck Phyle. We need to get some more information on that. [Note: There are also independent companies that do assessing for municipalities.]

Smith said speaking of Chuck Phyle, I also talked to him about the building services. Carlisle/Wortman, I know we’ve talked about this several times, we’re looking for an option that would be more affordable for us, and Independence Township Building Department has open capacity. So, I did meet with Phyle and Dave Moran from the building department. I think this is a good alternative for us. (To Ryan), Smith said so, we’re working on getting, what’s his name, Dan – Ryan agreed – (continuing), Smith said Dan Kelly will be providing a draft intergovernmental agreement for us starting to work with them, or their building department, on a contractual basis. So, it’s just taking contractually based building services away from Carlisle/Wortman and giving it to Independence Township. It’s pretty straightforward, one-to-one, and their costs would be pretty neutral to what we’re paying now. So that’s great news. So not only are we not looking at the 83% increase that Carlisle/Wortman had presented, but it stayed pretty much the way it is. So that’s great news.

Smith said we’re also looking to the township for assessing services, as I just mentioned above, and then billing for city sewer services is something we’ve talked about for a long time, and we wanna get that going as well. So, a lot of things that I think make sense to go through the township, we can’t afford to do these on our own, and doing them contractually through some other service such as Carlisle/Wortman or any other vendors like that, I think are gonna be cost prohibitive. So, making some good headway, I think, with the township.

Smith said as I mentioned in my comments earlier, I have completed three big grant applications now, one to the U.S. House of Representatives, one to the U.S. Senate, and one to the Michigan Senate, all for the Main Street project to repave our pavers, driveways, as well as our sidewalks, making all the sidewalks ADA compliant. Big, big change for downtown. This is a huge project that, like I said, I don’t see how we would afford this on our own, so we need grant help on this. $1.6 million is the estimated cost, so I’m actively pursuing that. Not sure if I’ll get any one of them. Maybe I’d get some combination. I’d get a couple hundred thousand for one, a couple hundred thousand for another. Might get us close enough that we can do this, but we’ll just wait and see.

Smith said and speaking of expenditures, our asphalt hot patcher is on its last legs. If you’ve seen this beast, it sits in the parking lot at Washington and Main, and it’s in horrible shape. In the last three weeks, we’ve had a wheel crack, had to be replaced, and we had a fender just fly off of it on Dixie Highway, and fortunately, it didn’t cause any accidents. But, and we’ve had temporary lights on it for probably three years now. It’s just kind of a, it’s seen better days and needs to be replaced. How much does one of these costs? You might think it’s not too bad, but it’s actually $50,000 for a new one of these. Working with some suppliers about used hot patchers, and I’m also talking to folks in the school district that seems to, they borrow ours quite a bit, and so I’m just seeing if they might be open to going in together on a purchase. Forte said smart. Smith said so, possibly Independence Township as well, but I think Clarkson Schools uses it more.

Smith said so, that’s all I have today.

Wylie said any questions from – Wylie recognized Forte.

Forte said I was gonna say thank you for all your creative solutions. It’s great not just to be like, okay, we’re just gonna spend $1.6 million. No, no. I appreciate that, you know. Smith said gotta look, gotta be smart (unintelligible).

Wylie said yeah, and Quisenberry had something.

Quisenberry said I do. It’s regarding the assessing, and I’m a little, obviously, all of us are concerned on it, so they’re gonna have to double the price, and it just, to me, seems strange, or sad, that Oakland County can unilaterally, like they did last fall, coincidentally after the election, just now, all of a sudden, bump services as they charge us without us really even increasing the services. They’re just now arbitrarily throwing figures into the computation that weren’t there before, and it’s questionable whether they should be there, but there’s not a lot we can do about it. And now they’re doing it again, and I don’t know what it is that is causing them to reassess the cost for this service that’s going to double it. What happened that caused it to be doubled?

Quisenberry said and another question, I guess, to you, Ryan, is can they unilaterally, without justifying an expense, an additional expense that they can pass down to us as a shared expense, and if that’s the case, okay, but can they unilaterally just up the price on us this much as a governmental unit? Can they do that? Ryan said yeah, I mean, they’re providing the service, and they can charge what they feel they can charge. I mean – Quisenberry said but doesn’t it have to be somehow justified and not some sort of just, we’re just gonna increase your rate or bill for this without explaining why? Ryan said well, I mean, that’s what elections are for. I mean, the board’s going in a different direction. This board’s going in a different direction. They’ve already shown that with the services for the sheriff’s department, and they’re just charging more money because they feel they can.

Quisenberry said exactly. It just seems like they’re charging us more money just because they can, and I’ll say right now, because I don’t know any different, it’s not based on any sort of real need or cost that they need to recover for doing this. And I remember looking at their explanation for the sheriff’s department increases, and there was some question even within the sheriff’s department, that whether they were needed increases, but we were helpless to do anything except pay the piper, and it looks like we’ll have to do it again now. And I just don’t know why they, because they can, just go ahead and ding us for double without any sort of explanation or increase in services.

Ryan said that’d be a discussion to have with the, with your county commissioner. Quisenberry said yeah, I mean – (interrupting Quisenberry), Ryan said yeah. I mean, that’s a political, electoral issue. Quisenberry said I understand that it is, and then they have the right as a board to accept these fees, but I would think that there should be something to balance, to explain why they’re doing it, why they need the extra money, why they’re hitting us for it. Ryan said well, the assessing contract’s going up over three years, so there’s a little more of a step than the sheriff’s department. Quisenberry said that’s what the sheriff’s do. Ryan said right. Quisenberry said it was a three-year increase with them, too, so. Smith said it would go up 42% the first year. Ryan said right. Wylie said that’s a big jump. Ryan said yep.

Avery said all right, but the option is, is that we opt out and we contract with someone else. Wylie said at least we have a little more flexibility with the assessing than we did with the police services. Avery said and if a lot of communities do that, they’re going to have a lot of assessors sitting there twiddling their thumbs, and then they’re going to come back and they’re going to lower the price. It’s a supply and demand thing.

Ryan said yeah, a lot of communities use the assessing at the county. It’s been a terrific, I mean, as Smith said, they’ve been great to work with for many years, but I don’t know why they – Avery said that’s their right to do it. We don’t have to like it.

Wylie said we could always invite Karen Joliat to come. Quisenberry said that’s what I was just going to ask, is can we ask the, our county commissioner to come here and explain why, as a board, they’re doing that? Ryan said sure. Wylie said she probably voted against it. Smith said I can ask her, it’s not bad for her to attend one of our meetings. Ryan said right. Wylie said you know, I can get in touch with her. Smith said OK. Wylie said I know her very, very, very, very, very slightly. Smith said OK.

Smith said I know that the assessing staff recently unionized, and that might have a small change, but it shouldn’t have been this kind of change. There’s nothing else for it to explain that kind of change. Now, we may have to talk to Coté today. If we went with the, our tax bills go out July 1. If we went with the township, could they be online and ready to give us our tax rate for the tax bills to go out on July 1? That’s when we’d be looking to start them at the start of the new fiscal year, July 1. But we’d have to, we’d have to talk to them to see how quickly they could be online. We may have to stay with the county for one year and then transition the next year, I don’t know, we’ll have to see.

Wylie said OK, all right, and thanked Quisenberry.

Wylie said anybody else on council have questions or comments about the city manager’s report.

Wylie said I think it’s about increased traffic. We talked, actually the first thing I have is more related to pedestrian safety. We talked about painting out, removing two parking spots on Main Street. And I think you said the DPW [Department of Public Works] was gonna, so you’re gonna see when they had time to do something like that? Smith said yes, and the equipment. I was just talking to Sheriff Ashley about that before the meeting. He asked the same question. Yes, we are gonna hash off the two spots, one in front of KH Homes and one in front of Honcho to improve visibility from the drivers on southbound. On northbound, unless there’s a massive semi in the loading zone, you can typically see the pedestrians. If they’re crossing at the crosswalk, if they’re crossing somewhere else, which happened to me yesterday, earlier today, people crossed mid-block, and I had to kind of slam on the brakes for someone that was crossing right at Woodshop. So, it is, people have to use common sense. Avery said thank you.

Wylie said right. (To Casey), Wylie said hang on a second, I had one more thing. I also suggested that we block off, remove the last parking spot on southbound Main on the west side, because what’s happening with all the traffic jammed up is people in the turning lane who wanna turn onto Waldon, and these are people who are southbound, head southbound on Main Street, are backed up so much that people can’t continue on Main Street. But if we had that one last spot taken out, that would help. Smith said yes, so in both cases, we need to get our paint striper in operation, so Jimi’s [Turner, DPW supervisor] working on that. And it’s something we can do ourselves. We don’t need to bring a professional to do that.

Wylie said and I had one more last thing, and then Casey. I don’t know if it’s a success, but I see people, thank you Rodgers, waving those little flags and crossing, and when I go by in the morning, I can see they’re on the west side of the street, because that’s where people would leave them, and then later on in the day, I see them kind of disperse. So, if it’s saving somebody’s life and bringing attention to that crosswalk, I think it’s a great thing.

Wylie recognized Casey for a comment.

Casey said yeah. I’m not sure we need to remove the parking place in front of, um, – Smith said Honcho? Casey said no. Smith said KH Homes. Casey said yeah. Wylie said I think it’s the worst one. Smith said it’s actually, yeah, they’re both, I personally have had it on both sites, where if those were removed, you’d just have a better sight distance. Casey said OK. Smith said I know we hate to lose a parking spot, believe me, but I think until we can get some other solution, namely a bump-out, but a bump-out is gonna take a parking spot away as well. So, I think it’s just something we have to do. We’d just all regret it if there was a fatality there, or even a bad injury. Wylie said thank you.

Wylie said anybody else on council.

No comments.

Wylie said questions or comments from the public. This is about city manager’s report.

No comments.

Wylie said okay.

Agenda Item #8 – Consent Agenda (video time mark 0:29:12):

• • 03-24-2025 – Final Minutes, Regular City Council Meeting (page 7/29 of the council packet)
  • 04-14-2025 – Draft Minutes, Regular City Council Meeting (page 9/29 of the council packet)
  • 04-28-2025 – Treasurer’s Report (page 11/29 of the council packet)
  • 04-23-2025 – Revenue and Expenditure Report for the Period Ending 03-31-2025 (page 12/29 of the council packet)

Wylie said Item #8 is consent agenda. We’ve got the final minutes of the March 24, 2025, regular meeting, draft minutes of the April 14th regular meeting, treasurer’s report for April 20, 2025. And I need a motion and a second to approve the consent agenda.

Motion by Forte; second Jones.

Wylie said any discussion from council.

No discussion.

Wylie said discussion or comments from the public.

No discussion.

Motion to accept the consent agenda as presented was approved by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said that consent agenda is approved.

Agenda Item #9, Unfinished Business (video time mark 0:29.53):

Wylie said Item #9 is unfinished business. There is none.

Agenda Item #10, New Business (video time mark 0:29:56):

Wylie said Item #10 is new business.

Item A – Discussion: Recap of Historic District Commission CoA’s [Certificates of Appropriateness] For Q1 2025 (video time mark 0:29:57):

• • Clarkston Historic District Summary of CoAs for 2025 (page 22/29 of the council packet)

Wylie said Item #10A, discussion, recap of Historic District Commission’s [HDC] certificate of approvals for first quarter of 2025. And Mike Moon is here to present that. (To Moon) Wylie said thank for coming.

Michael Moon:

Moon said OK. We have a fair amount of activity in this first quarter. And a fair amount of that was due to Ms. Sarah Schneider who put in three applications for three important properties on Main Street, right in the business district.

The very first is very easy. 15 South Main, currently called the Fed restaurant. They applied to put in a new awning. And the new awning is very similar to the old awning, only it now covers the steps. And this was a safety issue primarily for covering those steps in the wintertime. Forte said yeah, that’s good. Moon said because the old awning did not cover them, so the steps were slick in the winter. And this awning is removable so that it comes down in the summer months, goes up in the winter months. OK.

So, the other two properties though were more challenging or are more challenging. 28 to 26 South Main is the oldest building in the business district and actually is two buildings, two separate Greek Revival buildings. The one to the portion to the south that you can see, there is a bit of a division that you can see there. There’s a difference in the sequences of the windows and such. That building actually sat where currently the Masonic Temple is in the corner of Washington and Main and was moved to this location and joined up to the original building to the north. And then was, then the whole thing was part of the Johnson Hotel. So anyway, very important property. And they were applying to make a number of modifications to the exterior in terms of, for example, removing and replacing some of the architectural features.

And because of the importance of the property and because there’s so many changes that they were planning to do, we suggested that we have Ron Campbell, the Oakland County Preservation Architect, take a look at these. And the owner, the applicant, agreed to that. So, I just found out from Nancy [Moon, Michael Moon’s wife] that as we were leaving the house this evening to come here, Ron has sent his report in. So, I have not had a chance to look at it yet to see what his recommendations are. And because we operate under a time limitation on the HDC, we asked Ms. Schneider if she would be willing to extend her current application until we have all of that information in and she agreed to do that. Otherwise, we’d have to deny the project and then she has to reapply and everything. So, it’s in our, both of our best interests to just agree to continue that application. And so that will be on the agenda for the May meeting.

As will the next property, 23 South Main, which is on the opposite side of the street. They were asking to make multiple modifications of the building, including completely changing the front of the building. And as you can see, it’s a very typical 1920s center entrance commercial building and they wanted to change that, demolish the entire front and change it to a off-center entrance. So, we had suggested that they re-look at their floor plans and everything or that we, again, could have Ron Campbell, the preservation architect, look at that property also, which he said he was very willing to do. And they are thinking about it so far, and again, agreed to extend that application. Now, I might say at this point that it is the city’s participation in the Oakland County Main Street Program that allows Mr. Campbell to come and do these sorts of assessments and send us a report at no cost. It’s part of that Main Streets Program.

(To Forte), Wylie said I saw you had your, did you want to talk about it. Do you, if you don’t mind, if there’s a question about a house, if somebody could ask it, then you don’t have to go back and – Forte said yeah, I had a question.

Forte said so, with the recommendations, how does that work? Does he look at the plans and then come up with a list of what he suggests would be, like, accurate to that time frame? Moon said he does a site visit. We give him all of the materials that were provided to us by the applicant. And he looks at those and he came and did a site visit that Rob Hauxwell, the commission chair, and I accompanied him on, was fairly extensive at ground level, and then he puts that all together and sends us a report. And obviously I haven’t had a chance to look at the report because he just sent it. So, we’ll see what it is. Then the commission gets that report. We also send a copy to the applicant, and we make the decision. Now the commission can act on its own to either accept all of his suggestions or none of his suggestions. Wylie said thank you. Forte said yeah, thank you.

Avery said do we have any idea of what their plans are for either building? Moon said oh, what they, no, well, I’m sorry. Yes, in terms of 23 South Main, because they showed us floor plans and such, and their change in the floor plan is what occasioned their wanting to change the front, OK.

Casey said is that the barbershop? Nancy Moon said yes. Michael Moon said yes, yes. And they want to make it a restaurant. Yeah. (Laughter on council.) Wylie said restaurants do well here. Moon said yeah. So that there would be seating there in the front. They also want to build on to the back and have seating outside at the back and such. I probably shouldn’t go into it. (Avery made an unintelligible comment.) Moon said I mean, it’s really totally up in the air at this point. Avery said OK. Moon said and we never did, in the commission meeting, we halted the discussions because the changes to the front would be completely different from what was historically present. So, we never even got to talk about changes at the back of the building.

Nancy Moon said in the other building, they didn’t provide any input as to what they were going to do. Michael Moon said oh yeah, on the 28th and 26th South Main building on the east side of the street, you know, there was no discussion about what their plans were for the building. Forte said is that apartments upstairs? Moon said I believe so, but I’m not so sure. Forte said I’m just curious. Moon said I mean, it used to be, what, Frank and Me, retail, and a dentist shop most recently. Previously, bookstore. Casey said yeah. Forte said that would be great, bookstore. Moon said yeah, I’d love to have a bookstore.

Wylie said thank you, so, 18 South Main. Forte said sorry. Wylie said sorry. Moon said you want to go on to 18 South Main. Wylie said yeah. Moon said this is a commission meeting, the Woodshop, Mr. Lines was applying to replace the canvas awning that’s there simply from deterioration of that. And it was just a like-for-like replacement of the canvas awning.

Next, 43 West Washington, the owners, the Kirchner’s, wanted to reconstruct the pergola at the north elevation, the backyard of the house, which is easily seen from Washington Street. The commission had previously, I believe it was around 2018, granted a CoA [Certificate of Appropriateness] to actually build the pergola, and now it is falling apart. So, they wanted to replace that. Wylie said it was built in 2018. Moon said I believe it was 2018. Nancy Moon said ’17 or ’18. Wylie said it’s not that long. Michael Moon said ‘17 or ‘18. Wylie said that’s only seven or eight years, wow. Michael Moon said not that long. And so they intend to replace the wooden parts of it. The stone bases are still fine, they’re in perfect condition as far as we can see. Wylie said OK. Moon said but they want to replace the wood parts with something that will withstand the weather better. Wylie said OK. Moon said and we had a special meeting for that and the next two cases, because it was time sensitive. They wanted to complete this for the SCAMP tour there, focus on the SCAMP tour, and they wanted to complete it for that, so we had a special meeting to do that.

Moon said and also for the next two, the first, next one, 63 West Washington, was simply a roof replacement that just happened to come in two days before we had already decided to have a special meeting. And so that was at the museum, and all of a sudden. Wylie said so, you didn’t have to do the memorandum on that one, because you were having a meeting anyway. Moon said yes, exactly.

Moon said and then 62 North Main, Mr. Knapp was repainting his house in preparation, again, for the SCAMP tour, and was informed by the workers that he had a lot of wood rot in his front porch. Wylie said OK. Moon said so we had, so that he could get started and get a better evaluation of how far this went, we issued him a CoA, which with not all the, without all the facts, and so when he supplied those parts to us, for example, who was going to do the work, and what materials they were going to use, then we issued a revised CoA to include those items. Wylie said OK.

Moon said OK, we come to 29 South Holcomb, Mr. Quisenberry, to application to dismantle the fence on the south elevation with the replacement of a fence with new material. And this was a fairly easy discussion concerning the kind of material he wanted to use and all, and we issued the CoA, and then Mr. Quisenberry said he could not find that material, could not find fencing with that material. So, we have another special meeting Wednesday evening at 7:15. We’ll see what materials you can find.

Wylie said great. Thank you.

Quisenberry said and that picture is an old picture because it doesn’t have the Q on it. Wylie said Q’s out there, that’s right. Nancy Moon said yeah, it’s an old picture, yeah. Michael Moon said yes.

Wylie said any questions or comments for Mike Moon. I’m sorry did you have something more to say.

Moon said I’m sorry, just one statement. There were, as you know, nineteen new properties, one of which is the Depot Park, which were now included in the historic district that were not before. And letters have gone out to the owners of those properties – Wylie said good – (continuing) Moon said saying that they are now eligible for the Historic Preservation Tax Credit. Wylie said okay, thank you. Moon said that’s it.

Wylie said questions or comments.

Smith said I would just want to clarify that these nineteen properties are not new to the district. I don’t think the district has changed at all. Moon said they’re all now included in the district in which they were not before. Smith said well, they’re significant. Nancy Moon said they’re now classified as historical by state law. Michael Moon said they are now classified as historical. Smith said yes.

Wylie said thank you for the clarification. Anything else?

No additional comments.

Item B – Resolution: Website Development Expense for City Website Interactive Forms (video time mark 0:45:17):

• • Resolution – Website Development Expense for City Website Interactive Form (page 25/29 of the council packet)
  • Revize Online Interactive Forms Web Application Sales Agreement (page 26/29 of the council packet)

Item #10B is a resolution website development expense for city website interactive forms. This is a resolution.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie said and I think it’s pretty straightforward so we can do discussion afterwards, but would anybody like to resolve and then support that

Resolution by Jones; second Avery.

Wylie said and now is there any discussion from council members or questions. Wylie said we’ve got Casey then Quisenberry.

(To Smith), Casey said should these items have been included with the original contract. Smith said well, that’s what we talked, when I talked to them at length one afternoon about that very point and his comment was, well, we did give you a solution. You don’t like it and essentially, they email you all the comments that somebody entered on a form but they’re just scrambled, they’re not formatted, they’re just every which where, there’s other text intermixed with it. It’s not easy to read. And I can go through and what I’ve been doing is somebody submits a form as I go and clean it up, what they sent to me and it takes me maybe 10, 15 minutes to clean it all up and then it’s readable. But it’s really not an acceptable solution.

Casey said yeah but isn’t that a defect. I mean, shouldn’t they be responsible? Smith said yes, the very question I asked him, I said, this isn’t usable. He says, technically, it does give you a solution for forms. He says a lot of our clients don’t use these forms that often. Well, we use them quite a bit. That’s how people make a Depot Park reservation or just ask a question or want an item on the agenda for a council meeting. That’s the form we use all these forms. We’ve got about, I don’t know, (to Guillen), you know the number, it’s like fourteen or sixteen forms that we use on a regular basis with these two applications. Smith said so, he says, technically, you did get what you paid for in the $99.99 number, but you need something more robust than that. I can appreciate that, but you did get what you paid for.

Forte said do they, are they just billing interactive PDFs? Is that what this is? That they then submit? Smith said yeah, they’re what they call interactive forms, but they do come to us in a PDF format. Forte said oh my God, I can teach you guys how to do this. Wylie said they don’t wanna learn. Forte said no, but like, we can build these forms. Wylie said yeah, that takes time. Smith said that’s essentially what they’re gonna do, right? Forte said yeah. Smith said build these forms. Forte said I don’t think it’s worth it. Avery said and then they host it, too, right? Forte said yeah. Avery said they keep it on the, which we don’t have that capability.

Wylie said Quisenberry had a question or comment.

Quisenberry said I do, and it’s the same as what Casey had to say. They didn’t deliver, okay? It’s like hiring a painter, and he comes into your house, and he throws a bucket of paint at the wall, and he walks out and says, there, I painted your house. That’s not accurate. That’s not what we asked for. It’d be interesting to see the bid that we put out to see this is what we wanna do. Yeah, we wanna have, be able to have somebody go online and use these forms. That goes without saying. And for them to sit there and say, well, we gave it to you, but you know what, it’s a matter of gibberish. It’s up to you to now figure it out. That’s absurd. And now they wanna come back and charge us another 25% more of the original cost to do what they should have done it the first time. I think that’s absurd. They should be compelled to do, do the work that they got the bid for.

Qusenberry said and I’m curious, were there any other companies that offered the bid on this before they got it? Smith said on the overall website. Quisenberry said yes, I think so. Yes, there were. Quisenberry said yes, there were, all right. And it would be interesting to see, contact those other ones and say, look at what they said they’d be able to do, all right? And really do it, not just say, well, we’re giving it to you here, you guys figure out, here’s the key to hieroglyphics and I’ll figure out what you got, but we gave it to you. This is, I think, absurd. And I think that we shouldn’t, we should compel them to do what they were awarded to do.

Smith said I understand your position. And that was my position as well when I called him on the phone. I talked to him probably for a half an hour. And I told him, I’m unhappy with this. And he says, well, I’m giving you a discount. The $2,500 cost is a discount. Quisenberry said it doesn’t matter if it’s $50, all right? Do what you were supposed to do for the price that we agreed upon. That’s what it is.

Avery said well, maybe we have Ryan write a nasty letter and send it to him. Quisenberry and Jones said yeah.

Jones said I mean, I would pull the bid again, just to read. I wouldn’t want to review what was requested and then what was – Avery said delivered, yeah. Jones said yeah, delivered to see if, you know, because if we asked for a form and they came back and said, this is the form we’re gonna give you and we accepted it, and then that’s what it is, then I think that’s a different situation as opposed to, we asked for a form and you didn’t give us the form that we wanted. So, I think that we’d need to, unfortunately, it sounds like it’s gonna be a game of semantics.

Avery said well, our old website allowed for the amendable PDFs and all that stuff, did it work fine? And then these guys redid it, and it doesn’t work as well as the old way? Quisenberry said yes. Avery said then we have a problem. Quisenberry said and I can tell you that just by the application for the HDC. The previous applications, you could go online and fill out your application for that. And when I – Avery said but you can still do that. Quisenberry said no, you couldn’t. Avery said but it comes to Smith and it’s all scrambled. My question is, was it always that way? Smith said no, it was not. Avery said so, before they redid the website, it’s actually worse than it was? Smith said yes. Avery said now, OK, that’s a problem. Jones said yeah, the math is another thing that would be, yeah. Wylie said those are, and our old people, they bid on the job. Wylie said they did, yes. They were selling at a higher price. Wylie said OK.

Wylie said I have a separate question. This $500, is that irregardless of this business with the forms, that’s just to host the website? Smith said so, that’s specifically for the forms. Wylie said the $500 annually is just because doing the forms? Smith said yes. Specific to that. Wylie said I’m sticking with it. Forte said declining the whole thing. Avery said well, we gotta have – Jones said well, we gotta have, we have to have, we can’t just turn it off. Wylie said yeah.

Forte said I think we can build them ourselves. Like, I can come in and help. Quisenberry said we’re out $10 grand. Forte said no. I think – Avery said well, otherwise, the website works fine. Forte said like, I think our staff can build them. Like, I mean, I can help build them, like if they are willing. Wylie said fourteen forms. Forte said fourteen forms is nothing. Like, it’s like – (To Forte), Wylie said you are a wonderful woman. Forte said no, it’s really not much. I swear to God, you could probably get it done in two hours. And then, like, yeah, this is a lot of money. I think we try to do it ourselves and then upload them, see if it, like, the only part that I wouldn’t know how to do is the, like, the submitting part, but we could just say, submit to a specific city email. Like, if it’s really that much drama. Smith said they submit it automatically to the clerk’s email. Forte said OK, so – Smith said so, we do get it, but it’s just scrambled. And I don’t know if what you’re saying is you could unscramble this and it would be, obviously, custom for each form is different. Forte said so do you just get text files and then not, like – Smith said yeah. Forte said it’s not on the PDF? Smith said no.

Avery said right, to do that, you’d have to save the PDF as a PDF – Forte said yes – (continuing), Avery said and then you could email it as an attachment. Versus just pressing the button on the site, which would automatically send it without having you – Jones said yeah, so I’m thinking – (continuing), Avery said having to go to your email to have it sent. Jones said yeah, so it’s not, it’s not about how the form is built. It’s about the back end when someone hits submit. So, it’s not, it’s not actually the building of the form. Forte said because they’re already filling it in. Jones said because they’re already filling it in. It’s the, it’s whenever it hits submit, it’s whether that thing is getting sent to you as a plain text file, which does come through as gibberish because it’s got everything else in it, or if it’s being submitted as a PDF on the back end. So, the actual construction of the form is not where the money is going. It’s the hosting in the back end and figuring out what we asked for in terms of a form and how it will be sent back and then what was offered up on the bid and now how it’s coming back in a way we don’t need. Avery said yeah, to me, the bigger problem is that they want to tack on another 500 bucks to host that we’re already paying them.

Smith said we’re paying the hosting fee already. Avery said how much are we paying them a year. Smith said I don’t know, I don’t remember. Avery said yeah, but they just basically want to raise the price 500 bucks. There’s no way that putting fourteen forms on some server somewhere for the people to be able to access costs $500 a month. Smith said a year. Wylie said a year, yeah, a year is still a lot. Avery said yeah, a year, exactly.

Avery said so, they’re just trying to raise the price. To me, that’s what it seems like. Jones said yeah, this comes back as like, we gave you that discount to get the business and now we’re going to come back in, because they should already be, they’re not hosting. Avery said there shouldn’t be anything more. Jones said yeah, it’s not anything additional. We’re just asking them to have the form come through – Avery said as a PDF – (continuing), Jones said as a PDF as opposed to a plain text. So, we’re not asking them to host anything additional. So, yeah, I almost think that we need to just go back and like talk to them again, like before we – Quisenberry said I think it’s disingenuous for them to sit there and submit a bid like this and then give us a product like that and tell us, tell them, well, we gave you what we wanted and if we would have known that, we could have compared more realistically with competitors and said, yes, but how would you even think that to ask the question of the people with the bid, are you going to be able to give us something, this that we need? Avery said a readable form. Quisenberry said yeah. It goes without saying. We shouldn’t have to do that. Forte said and they did other cities, so they know that this is like part of the program.

Jones said well, it’s also just kind of a – Quisenberry said 25% increase to what their initial bid was. Jones said well, and also it feels like that this should have been something that was picked up in, like, the stress testing or like whenever they were building it on the back end when we were testing, I would imagine that they were probably testing the forms. So, we should have seen how they came through then. So, I feel like this is either something that was kept from us or, like, it was missed in it. But yeah, that right there, like feels like we should have seen a preview of what a form would have looked like submitted just as a test in just the regular stress testing of it. Smith said we did see this in the testing and we commented on it, that this is unacceptable. But at the same time, we wanted to get the rest of the website launched. So, we said, let’s go ahead and launch and we’re going to have to come back, circle back, and address these forms because this is unacceptable.

Quisenberry said that makes it even worse. Jones said yeah. Quisenberry said we discovered it during the testing where that implies that while they were building this thing and then testing it, they knew what was expected of them and they didn’t do it, even when it was brought out to them. And now they want to say, well, we did give it to you, but if you want it the right way, now it’s going to cost more. Jones agreed. Quisenberry said that makes it even more absurd. Jones said because that’s them going back on something that was agreed to from the original contract.

Wylie said so, would we prefer Smith go ahead and handle this? Do we want to get a lawyer involved, who’s looking at me like – Ryan said I think it sounds like you have to do more research on what they, what they promised in the -Smith said yeah, do a little bit of a comparison. (To Smith), Ryan said and then with the conversation you had with him about when you noticed that something was not acceptable relative to this aspect of it but went ahead on the other. I mean, was there any correspondence between you and the company about that? Because I know you wanted to get it up on the website. Smith said not in writing. It was just in the training session where we talked to them about it. Ryan said does anybody have any notes or anything about that that we could use. Smith said we’ll look into that and see if we have – Ryan said probably should table this. Wylie said do a table. Jones said yeah, let’s table it. Ryan said well, I mean, whatever you want to do. Wylie and Forte said let’s vote it down. Avery said well, I would say table it and let’s get more information so that. I mean, it can die on the vine either way.

Wylie said OK, I don’t remember. How do we table? Somebody’s got to make a motion to table? Ryan said correct.

Motion by Avery; second Jones.

Wylie said all in, oh, we got – Ryan said no discussion on a motion to table. Wylie said OK.

Wylie said I have a motion. Avery said it’s a motion to table. It’s not a resolution.

Motion to table approved by Avery, Casey, Jones, Wylie, and Forte through voice vote. Quisenberry opposed the motion to table.

Wylie said oh, you don’t want to table. Quisenberry said no, I want to turn it down. Wylie said OK.

Okay, so we are – Avery said well, we were essentially turning it down. Wylie said but we did, do we have to be unanimous to table? (Ryan shook his head no.) Wylie said we’re going to table. Okay, so it’s tabled.

(Chet Pardee raised his hand.) Wylie said hang on a sec. (To Smith and Guillen), do you have all the names that you need? Smith said yes. Wylie said you guys got everything.

Wylie recognized Nancy Moon for a comment.

Nancy Moon said I was going to say, we just went through, and actually I’m testing the one from the library for the Clarstonhistory.org. The problem you’re going to have is you’re strangled because of getting access to do things to that software yourself. And we’re dealing with that right now. Even though you might want to do and improve these forms, getting access to make it work for that software, you’re going to have to get approval from them. Because you probably don’t completely own it if you’re paying the fee. Smith said right. Jones said yeah. (Gesturing), Moon said so, they have you kind of like this, unfortunately. So, I agree, force them to do as much as you can because you’re, you’re strangled with them at the moment. Jones said but at the end of the day, it’s still on their server. They’re still the web hoster. So that’s like where it all – Moon said it’s all right there. Jones said yeah. Avery said but I don’t think they want – Jones said no, no – Avery said bad – Jones said no, no – Moon said they don’t want bad press. Jones said yeah, but I’m just saying it’s like, like – Avery said oh, I understand – (continuing), Jones said as much as we would like to just jump in, it is, it’s just kind of frustrating because it’s all on their stuff. Avery said right, and Nancy Moon’s point is that if we go in there and start messing with their proprietary software, they’re not going to be very keen on that. That’s going to be a problem. Moon said yeah, it’s going to be a problem.

Wylie said anything else on this resolution.

Pardee said I’d like to make a comment. Wylie said go ahead, Mr. Pardee.

Pardee said is there any other part of the website that’s really public facing that’s working okay? I mean, when I look at these fifteen things, these are fifteen things that the citizens communicate to city government about. Smith said from a citizen’s standpoint, they can use all these forms, and they can hit the submit button. It’s on the back end, that’s what I was saying. Moon said it’s on the back end, yeah. Pardee said I’m not going to find any difference. Moon said you’re not going to find any difference. Avery said no. Smith said no, from the customer’s standpoint, it’s really obvious to me. Wylie said OK.

Wylie recognized Quisenberry for a comment.

Quisenberry said looking at the contract, where they want us to sign for $2,500 more, the description says, revise online interactive forms, set up development. That, again, is so subjective. They can do whatever they want to do and say, well, we did it. Here it is. Now, you know, we threw two buckets of paint on it for you, but it still doesn’t work. So, the quote that they’re giving us doesn’t ensure we’re going to come out pleased again.

Smith said OK. We’ll dig into it further. Wylie said OK, good.

Item C – Motion: Disposition of Vintage Village Clarkston Siren (video time mark 1:03:01):

• • Motion – Disposition of Vintage Village of Clarkston Siren (page 28/29 of the council packet)
  • Photograph, Vintage Village of Clarkston Siren (page 29/29 of the council packet)

Item #10C is a motion, disposition of vintage Village of Clarkston siren.

(Wylie read the motion.)

Wylie said and I’ll need a motion on that. There it is.

Avery said can’t we just plant it in Depot Park and make it a (unintelligible crosstalk and laughter). Casey said like climbing, yeah, I mean – Wylie said just polish it up a little bit. Casey said it could fall off here. Wylie said what’s that? (Unintelligible response.)

Motion by Quisenberry; second Jones.

Wylie said and Jones, who’s like, motion on every item tonight, I think. Sometimes that’s the way it goes.

Wylie said any comments or questions from council.

No comments.

Wylie said any comments from the public.

Pardee said what’s the motion. Wylie said to sell or scrap this siren.

Smith said what we’ll do is we’ll put it on Facebook, try to sell it first, which is where we’ve been selling some of the unneeded DPW equipment, with good results, I might add. We’ll try to sell it there. If after a month or so there’s no interest, then we’ll scrap it.

Pardee said does this operate with our household current? Smith said no idea. No idea. Jones said I think this is a, you know, as-is sort of situation. Smith said I don’t even know if it works. Jones said yeah. Smith said I don’t know if it’s 110 or 220. I don’t, when you say household current Casey said yes, I’m sure it’s 440. (Laughter.) Avery said it’s a monster, yeah, at least 220. Smith said and it’s very, very heavy. It probably weighs 100 pounds. Wylie said OK.

Wylie said do you know if it’s a brass? Smith said no, it’s copper. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Wylie said scrapyard. OK.

Motion to dispose the vintage Village of Clarkston siren passed by unanimous voice vote.

Agenda Item #11, Adjourn Meeting (video time mark 1:05:26):

Wylie said and we are at Item #11, adjourn the meeting. I need a motion to adjourn the meeting.

Motion by Forte; second Jones.

Wylie said we gotta keep that streak going.

Motion to adjourn passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said the meeting is adjourned at 8:05. Thank you very much, everybody, and good night.

Resources:

• • Link to video recording here
  • 04-28-2025 – city council packet