Category: Streets/Street Repair

Introduction:

Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order (Video time mark 0:00:07):

Sue Wylie said ladies and gentlemen, it’s seven o’clock. I’m calling the meeting to order.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:12):

Wylie said if everybody would please rise, we will say the Pledge of Allegiance.

(Pledge said.)

Wylie said thank you.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:33):

Wylie said our third item on the agenda is a roll call. (To Angela Guillen, clerk), Wylie said as the clerk, would you please take the roll call?

Sue Wylie, Laura Rodgers, Al Avery, Gary Casey, Amanda Forte, and Ted Quisenberry were present.

Erica Jones was absent.

Wylie said thank you.

Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda – Motion (Video time mark 0:00:53):

Wylie said Item #4 is approval of the agenda and I need a motion from somebody on council to approve the agenda and then a second.

Motion by Quisenberry. Wylie said is there a second.

Forte said can we amend the agenda. Wylie said let’s approve it first and then on discussion we can amend it. Forte said OK. Oh, I still need a second.

Second Forte.

Wylie said does anybody have any questions or comments about the agenda as it’s approved.

No comments.

(To Forte), Wylie said now do you want to say something.

Forte said so, someone I talked to today was talking about the sewer updates. Do you want to do that under a different item, or should we add that? Smith said we can talk about that at any time. I could talk about it in the city manager report, or we can put a separate agenda item on the agenda if you want to go into details about what we spent. Forte said whatever you think is best. Smith said I’ll give you an update in my city manager report. Forte said that keeps it easy. Wylie said and my concern was, I understand that Forte talked to you about that today and did you have enough time to put that material together? Smith said yes. Wylie said OK, all right. So – Smith said somewhat. Wylie said OK, so – Smith said it’s still a work in process. Wylie said OK, all right.

Wylie said anybody else have any questions or comments or additions or changes they want to make to the agenda as it’s presented.

No comments.

Wylie said OK, we had a motion by Quisenberry, a second by Forte, on – I’m sorry, does anybody in the public have any questions or comments about the agenda?

No comments.

Agenda approved by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said the agenda is approved.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:02:29):

[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has occasionally decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them. In the past, members of the public have been cut off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act).]

[If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]

Wylie Item #5, we have public comments.

(Wyle read the rules for public comments.)

Wylie said would anybody like to make a public comment.

Wylie recognized Chet Pardee for a comment. Pardee thanked Wylie and said good evening. Wylie said we have all been given, we on council. Pardee said hopefully, you have all been given a copy of what you would normally see by email. Wylie said but we didn’t, you didn’t make the email. Pardee said didn’t send the email, but I brought hard copy. Wylie said OK.

Chet Pardee:

For the years of my involvement, my exception, my expectations for city officials have been transparency, follow the rules, and maintain our streets and sidewalks. City officials currently appear to be ignoring these critical character-based issues.

The number of city council special meetings emphasize that the city is at a point requiring significant introspection. Exactly how the city, exactly how did the city get to this point, particularly how has the city gotten to this point of vulnerability? Exactly what has been ignored by city officials. I’ve been advocating for tax changes for several years.

The past few weeks, my concern has been the city was acting in ways that would lead to the city becoming part of Independence Township. This is not my preference. I have not wanted our 800 plus citizens to be absorbed along with the 38,000 citizens of Independence Township.

What exactly was it that the city officials believed would be beneficial to the city’s citizens? The city sought additional contract agreements wanting to reduce costs, at the same time, increasing the city’s dependence. These actions emphasize the increase in vulnerability.

What caused Chuck Phyle’s [Independence Township Supervisor] behavior to change? Choosing to be aggressive by threatening to cancel recently agreed contracts. Did the City of Clarkston do something or not do something that caused his behavior change? It’s critical to understand, as he has now demonstrated his behavior toward the city can’t be trusted. The citizens of the city need to understand how did this happen, what caused it, and what will mitigate the threats to the city and its citizens’ well-being.

Wylie said and the rest of it is? Pardee said yeah, so then there are four pages attached to it that really relate to Quisenberry’s request in the last meeting. He was asking me, can I put on a document the things that I have expressed concerns about related to things financial in the past? And so that’s there. So those are the four pages that Smith will decide gets discussed in tomorrow’s finance committee meeting. Wylie said OK. Pardee said so, that’s really for everybody. I don’t think we’ve ever had any finance committee minutes. So, I think this was my only way of being sure that information that I presented, if you will, that can be used.

Wylie thanked Pardee.

Wylie said anybody else have public comments.

No comments.

Agenda Item #6 – FYI: (Video time mark 0:06:28):

Wylie said OK. Moving on to number six, we have FYI, which is none. Number seven, we have the city manager’s report. Actually, I take it back. I guess we do have FYI. Would this be? Smith said yeah, it came in at the last minute. Wylie said OK, sorry. Wicked Shop Shop says Ghost Walk Saturday, October 18th from 6:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. in partnership with our friends at the Clarkston Historical Society [Smith is President and Treasurer of the Clarkston Historical Society.] And there are tickets on sale. So, it’s a ghost walk in downtown area? Smith it starts at the Woodshop. Wylie said starts at the Woodshop.

Wylie said OK, anything else? Anybody want to add to it?

No comments.

Agenda Item #7 – City Manager’s Report (Video time mark 0:07:01):

• • October 13, 2025 City Manager Report (page 3/35)

Wylie said OK, so now we do have city manager’s report. And we have some items in the packet. (To Smith), Wylie said you probably want to talk about something before we ask questions?

Smith said I’ll go through these, and I’ll also give you an update on the sewer (unintelligible).

Smith said so, building code, I’m sorry, building service request for quotes. So that’s something we’ve been working on. The contract I had with Michigan BidNet has expired now. That ended in September. I did not receive a single response from that RFQ [Request for Quote] in their system. I reached out to them. They assured me they would get back to me on Friday. I still haven’t heard yet, but with some statistics and some guidance as to how to get better responses. So that request for quote for building services is ongoing.

(Erica Jones entered the room and sat at council table.)

Smith said last week, we did complete the installation of the ADA [Americans With Disabilities Act] door automation. So, there are three front doors to the office, the conference room door, the city hall door, and the bathroom door. But now they’re fully automated, so in (unintelligible) access is readily available. Everything’s working well there. As you know, we got a grant for this for $10,000. So, we used every bit of that grant, plus another, I think it was around $3,000 or $4,000 of city resources. But that is now fully automated. And this was so that people coming for election day can get into the space without worrying, having to open the doors manually.

Smith said the removal of the Asian bittersweet vine, it’s amazing what the crew did, the Otto Tree Service. I have to take hats off to them. They just did an amazing job. This picture here, before and after, let me get this, almost to work. So before and after picture really doesn’t give it justice, but that vine was just, you couldn’t walk in that growth six inches without getting tripped up by the vines. It was so aggressively thick. But it’s now completely removed. And a few of the trees that the vine had killed had to also be taken down, but that area is now clean. At this point, my DPW [Department of Public Works] team should be able to maintain the space so that the vines don’t restart. So amazing progress in the last week on that.

(To Smith), Casey said so how long did it take them to do this. Smith said two days. Casey said really. Smith said yep. Casey said what did we budget for it. Smith said $13,100, something like that. Casey said OK. Smith said it was two long days for the crew of about six people. They had some heavy-duty machinery that they brought in to kind of chew away at that vine. Incredibly aggressive vine. Wylie said I walked down there where they were working just to see what was going on. I couldn’t believe the work, pulling all that stuff out. Smith said oh, yeah. That’s what I like about Otto Tree Service. They are a very, very hardworking crew, and they just don’t stop. It’s like they’re literally running from machine to machine, space to space.

Smith said I guess at this point, I’ll give you an update on the sewer maintenance program, which has come under fire recently. So, the sewer maintenance, if you recall, last fall, late fall, Independence Township paid to have, which they are required to do every five years, to do a camera survey of all of our sanitary sewer, not the storm drain, sanitary sewer lines. So, they go down, they flush them out first, and then they send a robotic camera down the lines, and they investigate the condition of all of them. Coming out of that was first, the highest priority repair work in the West Alley. If you recall up here in the West Alley behind Rudy’s and the Fed, there were two major repairs needed there because they actually collapsed in spots. So, as you know, we did complete that repair last January, I believe it was. And so that is now behind us. That was a very expensive repair, about $194,000. And we are currently doing a special billing to all of our sewer customers to help pay for that very large repair bill.

Smith said the next level of priorities was still important, but not as bad as that one. That was a complete collapse that occurred. The next priority is another section of sewers that need lining. They are not collapsing, so they can still be saved through a robotically applied lining on the inside of the sewer line. So, they send this down and it backs out, spraying liner inside the pipe, sealing it up. This has been a proven solution in many, many municipalities, so it’s something that we would like to do. To do this second level of priorities, sewer repairs, sewer maintenance, is about $100,000, I’m told. I haven’t received an exact quote, but Pipeline Management Company, the company that did the camera work, they are gonna come back to us with an estimate and it could go to a couple different companies. We’ll get quotes on that. So, I have a meeting with them on Monday. I’m gonna be talking with them about the cost to do this as well as the timing of when this could be done. So that’s where it stands.

Smith said there’s gonna be a third and possibly even a fourth level of priorities that we can look at, but first things first, let’s get the collapses addressed first, which we did last winter, and now we’re gonna move on to the second level of repairs and we’ll hope to get that done in the next, say, three to six months.

Casey said do you know where that needs to be done? Smith said no, I don’t have the details on that. Hope to get that on Monday in my meeting with Dave Lusky [no spelling provided] from Pipeline Management Company.

Quisenberry said if we are gonna have to spend another $100,000, that’s half of what we did in the first, about half – Smith said yes – (continuing), Quisenberry said where might that come? If we had to put into effect a special assessment for that one, what are we gonna do with this? Smith said well, hypothetically, we could do a special assessment for that as well, but I’ve been talking with Greg [Coté, treasurer] about the possibilities. What do we have in our sewer fund today? We know we have a minimum of $50,000. It could be as high as $70,000, so I think a good chunk of it could be funded by there. We could also borrow from the water fund and get all the $100,000 cost of the second level of priorities completed. We have still an assessment in place that goes for about another four quarters that we did for the West Alley, so that’s still running for about another four quarters, so I don’t wanna pile on to our residents and do another special billing on top of the other special billing, which is not yet complete, but those are all alternatives.

Quisenberry said will the next four quarters of assessment provide us with any additional, or is that gonna all be used up with that first part? Smith said that’ll all just pay off the first, the past work that’s already done.

Wylie said so, hypothetically, we probably would be looking at increasing our quarterly payments, just increasing what we charge for sewer, because we’re gonna need to build up that sewer fund more, because we’re facing expenses now. It is clear that for a long time, we’ve benefited, the sewer pipes were installed in 2001 as part of a citywide effort to upgrade our utilities, our infrastructure. A lot of roads, water lines were upgraded, roads and curbs, and the sewer lines. So, a lot of that was done in 2001. Twenty-four years is a fairly young age for a pipe to be failing, so we’ve been benefiting that. We have not had this problem for the last 24 years. We’ve been completely void of any special billing for sewer work, but it is apparent now that we’re starting to run into some issues. The pipes themselves should not be wearing out, but if there’s an external force, tree roots, collapsing road, some other external force that’s coming into play, that can drive pipes to fail prematurely. (To Wylie), Smith said so, to your point, yes, we could be looking at more and more of these, so I don’t necessarily want to run the tank dry, because we might be right around the corner of something else.

[Clarkston Sunshine: The reason there is no money in the sewer fund for repair is because the city council appropriated hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars that were expressly earmarked for future water and sewer repair for an unnecessary Department of Public Works expansion and city hall renovation that taxpayers strongly objected to through a city-wide sign and petition campaign. (Repairs would have cost around $48,000.) Now that extensive sewer repairs are necessary, the city council authorized a 9% rate increase to our sewer bills on February 1, 2024, in an effort to rebuild the funds the council misused. The $50-$70,000 Smith mentioned is coming from our sewer bill overpayments that have accrued since February 1, 2024, because of the 9% sewer bill increase. Mayor Wylie and Smith are suggesting a second increase to your sewer bill in less than two years’ time. The council and city manager failed to be fiscally responsible with the sewer fund – and everything else – which is consistent with the statements attributed to Independence Township Supervisor Chuck Phyle about city mismanagement.]

Wylie said OK, maybe you explained at the time, but what caused the failure at that West Alley? Smith said West Alley, we think, is vibration in that alley. The structure of that roadway is such that there’s a lot of rubble in that, in the sub-foundation. When we dug that out, at both ends of the alley, we found a lot of rubble, and so we don’t see any other external force that could have come into play. So, it just seems like it’s heavy truck activity on top of maybe not the best road base to begin with. Wylie said on top of. OK.

Wylie said anybody else on council? (To Smith), Wylie said I’m sorry, maybe you had more to say on this topic? Smith said nope.

Wylie said did anybody else on council have questions or comments on the sewer.

Forte said yes, and you’ll meet with him on Monday, and then when do you expect to hear back? Smith said yes, well, I’ll get some more details on Monday, and then for the next council meeting, I will come back with more details of kind of what the next steps are, how urgent they are, when do we want to do this, all those kind of details, I’ll come back to the next council meeting with. Forte said OK, thank you.

Wylie said anybody else on council.

No comments.

Wylie said anybody in the public have questions or comments on sewer maintenance.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment.

Pardee said it appears that this sewer maintenance, $100K maybe, was what Chuck Phyle was talking about, that we owed and hadn’t included in our budget. I know that’s not accurate, but wasn’t that his point? Smith said that was one of his points. He’s referencing the fact that we have not stayed up with our sewer maintenance. The fact is, we did repair the worst condition, which was the collapse, and now we’re looking at the second level of condition, and we’ll look at the third and the fourth, but it is what his reference is, that you need to be staying up on your maintenance, and you haven’t been. I disagree with that, but that’s his – Wylie said well, because we didn’t know about it until the camera went through. Smith said right.

Rodgers said there, and it hasn’t been any contamination of water or anything like that based on this, right? Smith said none whatsoever. Rodgers said that’s what I thought. Smith said the theory, I have to assume, his theory is that if a sewer pipe is broken and leaking sewage into the groundwater, it could go into people’s wells, if they have wells, or into the community well. So – (interrupting Smith), Rodgers said but currently, that’s not happening. Smith said not to our knowledge, no. Nothing would suggest from the cameras that there’s imminent failure. The ones that were imminent were in the West Alley. We fixed those. So now, we’re going on to the second level, and those were not imminent failure. They’re just something that you need to address in the next two to five years. Rodgers said so, Mr. Phyle, what he said, wasn’t really based on any factual information that we have here at the city. Smith said that’s correct. Rodgers said that is all his opinion, be it what it is. Smith said right. Unless he has more details, then – (interrupting Smith), Rodgers said that he’s not sharing. Smith said that maybe his DPW provided to him. Maybe that’s possible. I can’t refute that or speak to that.

Wylie said anybody else on council.

No comments.

Wylie said anybody else in the public.

Anybody else on public.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment.

Pardee said to Rodgers’s point, if in fact there was sewage escapement that was going into the non-sewer water system, MS4 [Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System] could find that? Smith said no, MS4 is strictly storm drains. Pardee said yeah. Smith said MS4 looks at the water coming out of a surface water drain, like off of a parking lot, into the rivers. That’s what MS4 is checking, is the contaminants in that water coming from the storm drains, not sanitary, storm drains into the waterways. Pardee said I was thinking that Rodgers was suggesting if there was an escape from the sewer, would it go into the storm water system? Rodgers said no, I wasn’t suggesting that at all. I was suggesting that the information that is being touted around town is false information based on what we know. That’s what I was suggesting.

Wylie recognized Deanna Olsen for a comment.

Olsen said well, it was kind of similar to this question. I’m assuming that if it were to be getting into the community well or people’s individual wells, they’d have to test their well, but is somebody testing the community well on a regular basis, and they have to? Smith said my understanding is they do test that, yes. Olsen said who does that? Smith said Independence Township DPW. Olson said so, they would know if – Smith said they would know, they do – (interrupting Smith), Rodgers said and they had an obligation to share that with us at the moment they determined that in detail, correct. Smith said absolutely. Rodgers said not when there is an issue that we want to expound on.

Forte said and maybe we should just clarify for our agenda’s sake, we’re going to go into a lot of the Chuck Phyle stuff before we go into closed session, so everyone’s on the same page. But you hinted about a few things in your public comment, and we just went over one of the points that he had a point of contention with. But we’re going to go over all of it. Pardee said excluding the public. Forte said no, with the public. Just so you know, so like, when we, just so you know, because you brought up some of those.

Wylie recognized Olsen for a comment.

(To Smith), Olsen said you alluded to a third and fourth possible sewer future problem. Is there an estimate on that? So we would do, is the $50,000 what we did over here at the, over the bridge? When you did the big sewer thing over the Depot Bridge? Smith said that was done last year. Olsen said is that – Smith said that was actually storm drain. Olsen said oh, that was storm drain, OK. Smith said that wasn’t sanitary. Olsen said so, the first sewer assessment was about $50,000 over budget. Smith said it was actually, for the West Alley, it was almost $200,000. Olsen said but we didn’t pay all of that. Smith said it’s, yeah. Olsen said oh, it is? OK. Smith said all of it’s been – Olsen said so what is the estimate for phase three and phase four? Smith said we don’t know that yet. Olsen said is it a, it could be potentially $100,000 each again. Smith said it could be. Olsen said so, we’re looking at $500,000. Jones said no, no, no, we’re not. Olsen said or $300,000 right now. Jones said no, we don’t know anything yet. We don’t know. Olsen said well, we know $300,000. Jones said no, we don’t. Olsen said well, we’ve done $194[,000], and then this is $100[,000]. Jones said yeah. Olsen said so that’s $294[,000]. Coté said right. Olsen said $300,000. Jones said but we don’t – Coté said we’re speculating on $100,000 at this point. Jones said yeah, I’m referring to the future repairs. Olsen said yeah, that’s in addition to the $294[,000] estimated. Smith said yes, estimated, yes. Jones said which again, I think it’s all very premature to be talking about since you haven’t had the meeting yet.

Wylie said well, then again, we’re still talking about sewer pipes that are 24 years old, which is young for sewer pipes. So, there should not be issues with them. Most of those sewer pipes are running probably residential streets, residential backyards. So, unless it’s tree roots, they’re not gonna be getting truck vibrations like the West Alley did. Smith said right.

Wylie said OK, anybody else in the public? And I am watching time on all of this meeting.

Padee said when will the next camera-ing occur? Smith said it’s supposed to be done every five years. It was actually ten years between camera inspections the last time, but we hope they’ll stick to a five-year plan. So that would mean it’s four and a half more years before we’ll see them again. Pardee said thank you.

(To Smith), an unidentified man said I have a quick question. Why were they derelict on the five-year? The hurdle. Why did we wait ten years? Smith said not sure. That’s part of our contract with the Independence Township that that be done every five years. I’m not sure what other factors came into play as to why that wasn’t done. On the fifth-year anniversary, it was almost ten years between cameras.

Wylie said anybody else.

Wylie recognized Cara Catallo for a comment.

Catallo said I have a quick question actually from the beginning of the manager’s report, or just a comment more, that I would suggest reaching out to our neighbors in Ortonville about how they do their building services because I’m under the impression that they took them out of their house and then they brought them back in and they might have some good advice or suggestions about what they experienced in their process. It just seems like a worthwhile, you know, telephone call. And I also would, I’m curious because I’ve heard some voices about what appears to be an accessory dwelling unit on Madison Court. Just, I’m curious if the township building department did their due diligence into looking into our ordinances about, you know, putting an accessory dwelling unit in a residential, like an R1 area. But I was also curious if that’s more of an enforcement thing and just wanted to sort of mention that it seems like somebody should be overseeing that, even if it means that we have to invite the planning commission to look at residential plans again. It just seems like there’s a chance that that was overlooked even though it was brought up multiple times.

Smith said I will respond to that. First of all, regarding Ortonville, yes, we’ve actually talked with Ortonville already once about a month or so ago, but we’re not opposed to that. We’re gonna reach out to them again to see how successful they’ve been and is it possible to piggyback on their services. Relative to the ADU [Accessory Dwelling Unit], that is not an ADU. It’s a building that looks like a living space, but those are offices and hobby rooms upstairs, their garage. So, yes, the Independence Township Building Department and I talked, their enforcement people, we talked. There is nothing to enforce there because it is not a living space.

Catallo can I ask just a follow-up question. (To Smith), Wylie said you all set. Smith said yes. Wylie said yes, go ahead.

Catallo said will there be restrooms in the building, or a kitchen? Because the initial plans that the HDC [Historic District Commission] saw, it was dubbed an apartment. OK, so I know that the township doesn’t allow it on their property. I was just curious that it’s allowed here. Smith said we have since, I’ve talked with the homeowner at length about this, and the plans have been modified. They no longer are calling this living space. It was an error, he tells me, on the part of the architect. The architect has changed the plans. They now say it’s a hobby space. You are allowed to have bathrooms, even a shower, even a kitchen in there. If you’re doing pottery work or whatever your hobby might be and you get all dusty and dirty, you can take a shower there. There’s nothing wrong with that. It might imply that somebody’s living there, but what we would have to do is, after the construction is done, the code enforcement team at the township are aware of this. They will have to revisit these sites periodically. If they see cars there day after day after day and lights on upstairs and it appears that somebody’s actually living there, how they make that determination, I don’t know, but they can ask to investigate the space, and enforcement, if needed, will be addressed. I don’t disagree that the planning commission should probably be reengaged to review in light of ADUs, which is a touchy, very fine line, I think the planning commission should be brought back in to review residential building proposals. Right now, they only do commercials. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to bring them back in to do residential.

Wylie said great, thank you.

Wylie recognized Quisenberry for a comment.

Quisenberry said I do. So that addition was never approved by our planning commission. Smith said well, no, they don’t have to approve it. Quisenberry said so, the answer is no, it was not approved. It didn’t get the approval of planning commission. And you said something in your conversation that certainly ADUs are not allowed. The very first plans that were submitted, you said, were changed to now accommodate, or now use the verbiage of workspace, hobby rooms, and whatever. So that at least tells me that the very first plan that was given called it living space, called it bedrooms, bathrooms, something that certainly would trigger a no on the approval of it. And then later on, once it started getting legs and moving and realizing, no, now we may have crossed into something we shouldn’t, let’s now call the tomato a tomato instead. It seems like it was first presented as living space and approved. And now that they know that living space isn’t, they just call it something different. That doesn’t smell good. Smith said well, the fact is they’ve changed their plans.

Quisenberry said but how do you stop this from happening? Smith said well, I have said, I think we should, and the planning commission is actually looking for guidance on this from council. Do you want them to pursue an ADU ordinance? So that it specifically defines what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It just would make it very clear. Gerry Fisher [city attorney] in one of our previous meetings said by the fact that we don’t say ADUs are okay, it means they are not okay. And we started down that road with short-term rentals. And we started getting into all these definitions and it’s just so much clearer. Like when short-term rentals, we said, they are only allowed in the commercial district. That made it abundantly clear. I would like to do something somewhere with ADUs that just makes it abundantly clear to myself, to the staff, to the building officials and the code enforcement officials that this is how ADUs are to be treated. Are we gonna allow them or not? Or allow them at such a level, but not at this level? I would like the planning commission to work on that, to just make this abundantly clear so we’re not in this ambiguity going forward.

Quisenberry said but why go ahead and do that when we’ve already got a situation in place that says you can’t do it by virtue of the fact that there’s no language saying you can. So why do we want to make it more ambiguous to add something onto something that’s already clear? Smith said well, that’s just my recommendation. I’m following what other cities have done, and this is the recommendation is put some definitions around what is an ADU and what is not. Is a hobby space over a garage considered an accessory dwelling unit? Quisenberry said might it be four months from now when all of a sudden they decide they don’t like pottery anymore, but you know what, my mom’s gonna come over and live here?

Wylie said ultimately, it’s gonna be up to city council whether or not we want planning commission to look at it. Well, we can talk about one situation right now. This isn’t the place to talk about one situation.

Avery said right, you can go on and on about it. But as it says, I think you’ve handled it correctly. It’s not allowed, you’ve let them know that, that it’s not allowed, that’s all we can do. If they proceed to turn it into that, well then we have to – Smith said enforce it – (continuing), Avery said enforce it, yeah. That’s pretty simple. I wouldn’t complicate it. Smith said that’s how we’re treating it now. If we get word that it’s being lived in repeatedly, day after day after day, then yes, it’s time to step in on an enforcement side. Wylie said and I would imagine that neighbors would come to the city office or call you, call somebody at the city office and say, hey, somebody’s living there, they’re there all the time. And then somebody takes the next step. Smith said and in this case, it’s obvious because it’s new construction, they have plans, they have construction crews out there, but there are a lot of situations that have come to my awareness that they’re just doing this on their own. Weekend, you know, carpentry guy is just adding on in their garage, adding on living space. We don’t even know. Quisenberry said it’s not true. Smith said we don’t even know. Quisenberry said I see the trucks going down there all the time. Wylie said I think he’s not talking about that particular situation. Smith said no, I’m saying anywhere in the city, this could be happening. Somebody could be in their garage, you know, carving out some space for their son-in-law to live. It could be happening. And so, the way that, to some degree, the way we have to address this is through enforcement.

Wylie recognized Catallo for a comment.

Catallo said I just wanted to say that as somebody who grew up here, I don’t find it at all ambiguous. It’s always been really clear. And maybe it’s because I remember my parents going through this and not being allowed to put a restroom in their backyard house specifically for this purpose. And I know somebody in the township who was interested in actually putting an art studio on their property and couldn’t specifically because of the notion that it could end up being an ADU. So really the way that it’s nipped in the bud is to not allow to put restrooms or kitchens in. And I believe that our zoning specifically addresses that. And I just feel like this was sort of, it was brought up a lot of times that it was just sort of like let through and I feel bad for the neighbors. But I think that it’s something that needs to be addressed and clearer that either it’s allowed or not. I mean, I guess maybe I’ll go back into pottery and put a bathroom in my playhouse now so that I have a special space for visitors. But I don’t, I just feel like it’s something that needs to be addressed. And it’s interesting to me that the township doesn’t allow it so much in the township, but it did allow it in our village. Wylie said OK and thanked Catallo.

Wylie said anybody else have comments on, are we still on city manager’s report?

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment and said OK, just, and I am, you have 26 seconds left on your time to do, I’ve been keeping track of your three minutes. You have 26 seconds left to speak. (To Wylie), Pardee said I can’t hear you. Wylie said you have 26 seconds left to speak on your three-minute time limit.

Pardee said I raise a question with the attorney about limiting the audience participation. I accept three minutes. I wasn’t up there for three minutes. (To Pardee), Wylie said OK, I’m not, excuse me. I’m not including your public comments. I’m including your comments now. Would you like to speak? Pardee said no, thank you.

Wylie said OK, anybody else want to speak.

No comments.

Wylie said OK. (Pardee made an unintelligible comment.) (To Smith), Wylie said do you have anything else on city manager’s report.

No comment.

Wylie said anybody have anything else on city manager’s report?

No comment.

Wylie said OK.

Wylie said oh, and I did have one more thing to say. Back to the city hall ADA automation, I wanted to again thank Guillen again, our clerk, for finding the grant, getting the grant for us, I appreciate it. And I think people who need that accommodation will appreciate it. Thanks again.

Agenda Item #8 – Oakland County Sheriff’s Report (Video time mark 0:36:41):

• • City of the Village of Clarkston Monthly Report, cumulative through September 2025 (page 4/35 of the council packet)

Wylie said and we are on sheriff’s report. Smith said Sergeant Ashley called and said he could not be here tonight. But they submitted their report anyways. Wylie said OK.

Wylie said anybody have any questions or comments on city manager’s [sheriff’s] report?

No comments.

Agenda Item #9 – Consent Agenda (Video time mark 0:36:56):

• • 09-08-2025 Final Minutes, Regular City Council Meeting (page 5/35 of the council packet)
  • 09-22-2025 Draft Minutes, Regular City Council Meeting (page 7/35 of the council packet)
  • 10-06-2025 Draft Minutes, Special City Council Meeting (page 9/35 of the council packet)
  • 10-13-2025 Treasurer’s Report (page 11/35 of the council packet)
  • 10-09-2025 Check Disbursement Report, 09-01-2025 – 09-30-2025 (page 12/35 of the council packet)

Wylie said OK, Item #9 is a consent agenda. This includes our final minutes of the September 8, 2025, regular meeting; the draft minutes of the September 26, 2025, regular meeting; the draft minutes of the October 6, 2025, special meeting; and the treasurer’s report from October 13. These are all 2025. And I need a motion and then a second to approve the consent agenda.

Motion by Forte; second Rodgers.

Wylie said any discussion or comments from council members.

No comments.

Wylie said from the public.

No comments.

Motion to accept the consent agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said the consent agenda’s approved as it’s presented.

Agenda Item #10, Unfinished Business (Video time mark 0:37:46):

Wylie said Item #10 is unfinished business. We have none.

Agenda Item #11, New Business (Video time mark 0:37:51):

Wylie said Item #11 is new business.

Item #11a – Motion: Election Commission (Video time mark 0:40:12):

• • Motion – Election Commission Appointments (page 17/35 of the council packet)

Wylie said we have a motion on an election commission. (To Guillen), Wylie said are you gonna be speaking on this. (Guillen made an unintelligible comment.)

Smith said yes. This is something we approve every year. It’s three members of the election commission that are just responsible for overseeing certain testing, as well as the election day itself. The election commission is made up of three members, the city clerk, one other city officer, and last year it was myself, so we kind of assumed that I would do that again, and then one other registered elector whom council shall designate. And Evelyn Bihl [administrative assistant/treasurer assistant/deputy clerk] has volunteered to be that other registered elector. So, we’ve already put together a motion here to, but this can be changed if you wish to do so. So, it’s got Guillen as the clerk, obviously, myself as the appointed city officer, and Evelyn Bihl as the qualified registered elector.

Wylie said I’m not gonna read through the whole motion because you basically have just read the whole thing, other than it says, Evelyn Bihl, the city’s election commissioner, this will be effective immediately. And the city clerk, Angie Guillen, would be the chairperson. And this is a motion, so I need a motion to appoint these election commission officials.

Motion by Avery; second Rodgers.

Wylie said any comments or questions from council members.

No comments.

Wylie said from the public.

No comments.

Wylie said let’s do a roll call.

Catallo said I have one.

Wylie said I’m sorry, go ahead. Catallo said sorry, I just feel like it might look better if it’s not all staff members, but if one is a resident and not somebody who works in the building, then that’s just my own personal opinion. Wylie said thank you.

Wylie said anybody else, questions or comments.

No comments.

Wylioe said OK, we’re gonna do a roll call. (To Guillen), Wylie said if you would take the roll call, please.

Quisenberry, Rodgers, Wylie, Avery, Casey, Forte, and Jones voted yes.

Wylie said OK, and thank you. The motion is adopted.

Item #11b – Resolution: Assessing Services Agreement (Video time mark 0:40:12):

• • Resolution – Assessing Services Agreement (page 18/35 of the council packet)
  • Bid comparison (page 19/35 of the council packet)
  • City Assessor Service Agreement (page 20/35 of the council packet)
  • Exhibit A, Scope of Services (page 25/35 of the council packet)

Wylie said next on our agenda is a resolution assessing services agreement.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie said and I need somebody to resolve it and somebody to support this resolution.

Resolution by Rodgers; second Casey.

Wylie said questions or comments from council members.

Quisenberry said the effective date would be when? Smith said actually, October 1st. (To Coté), Smith said is that right.

Wylie said and anybody else in council.

No comments.

Wylie said any questions or comments from members of the public.

No comments.

Wylie said OK, we need a, because it’s a resolution, we need a roll call. (To Guillen), Wylie said if you would take the roll call, please.

Casey, Forte, Jones, Quisenberry, Rodgers, Wylie, and Avery voted yes.

Wylie said and the resolution’s adopted. Thank you.

Item #11c – Resolution: Road Markings (Video time mark 0:42:21):

• • Resolution – Repainting of Parking Space, Crosswalk and Stop Bar Markings
  • Inventory of Road Markings (page 29/35 of the council packet)
  • City Map with Road Marking Locations (page 30/35 of the council packet)
  • Bid Comparison (page 31/35 of the council packet)
  • Bid from Lifewide Asphalt Services (page 32/35 of the council packet)
  • Bid from State Striping, LLC (page 35/35 of the council packet)

Wylie said our next item of new business is #11C, Resolution Road Markings. I’ll read this resolution.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie said I will need somebody on council to make this resolution.

Resolution by Quisenberry; second Rodgers.

Wylie said questions or comments from people on council, members of council.

No comments.

Wylie said questions or comments from the public.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment.

Pardee said I don’t see Clarkston Road and Main Street or Washington as being on the map. (To Pardee), Smith said good observation. That’s because those roads are owned by either the Oakland County Road Commission or MDOT (Michigan Department of Transportation] and I’m not allowed to stripe on their roads. Pardee said there’s a commitment on when they can repair them. Smith said they do it typically on a two-year cycle, so I don’t know where we are on a two-year cycle. I agree that some of them are badly worn, but those are their roadways and I’m not allowed to stripe those.

(To Wylie), Smith said I did have a comment, though. Wylie said go ahead. Smith said so, at the bottom of the page where I highlight what’s included, and we’ve talked about this in previous council meetings, is that we are actually eliminating four parking spots in the city. I know this is a sensitive topic, but these are for safety reasons. So, there are four of them. I’ll go through them real quickly here.

Smith said so, the parking space in front of the dentist up here, the last spot before the road kind of moves over to allow for the Walden Road turn lane. And it gets kind of tight there at times, and especially with trucks and they’re backing up on the left turn lane going to Walden, and you can’t get a car through because of that last car in front of the dentist office. It’s been there for a long time, that parking spot, but it’s kind of dangerous, and so we feel that should be eliminated. The next two are right across from each other. One is in front of Harrison Home, and the other one is directly across the street in front of Honcho. There are the spaces closest to the corner.

As you know, we put up the flags, what’s it called, flags for, what is it? Jones said the safety flags. Smith said safety flags. Quisenberry said pedestrian. Jones said pedestrian safety flags. Smith said crosswalk, cross me or whatever. I don’t remember the term they use. But we put that up, and that’s been very successful, I have to say. We’ve only had to replace the flags once so far, so people aren’t swiping them as we thought they might. It’s working very well. People are using the flags, and sometimes we have to rebalance and put them back over on the other side and what have you, but that’s working very well.

Smith said nonetheless, that is, as drivers come south on Main Street, and I’ve experienced this, you probably have too, you get up there and you see somebody has been waiting, and you didn’t see them because that last car, especially if it’s a van or a truck, is blocking your visibility of that pedestrian waiting to cross. And I’ve had some pedestrians even start to walk out boldly, and I didn’t see them, wasn’t disrespectful, but I just didn’t see them. So, we’ve talked about this as well in a previous council meeting, and in the interest of increasing safety, we think both of those spots, one in front of Harrison Home, one in front of Honcho, need to be hashed off as not a valid parking spot.

Smith said the last one is on 24 East Washington. Just as you approach Buffalo, there’s a stop sign, it’s a three-way stop at East Washington and Buffalo, but a lot of drivers just blow right through that stop sign. They either don’t see it, or they ignore it, I’m not sure which is in their head, but they are blowing through that, and so the thought was similar to the previous example, was people don’t see it because a car can be pretty close to the corner there. So, we’re gonna back that off. We’ve had a cone there the last few weeks waiting for this to get done, but we wanna hash off that spot too because it’ll improve visibility there. We’re also gonna do the striping right there, so we’re gonna restripe the stop bar and put the word stop right on the road. So, we’re doing other things to help, but we think we also need to hash off this last part of the spot.

Smith said so, I know it’s a sensitive topic, eliminating four spots, but in the name of pedestrian safety, I think we have to do it.

Wylie said great, I agree 100%.

Wylie said anybody else have questions or comments on council, (to Erich Lines), Wylie said then we’ll get to you.

No comments.

Wylie said and in the public.

Wylie recognized Lines for a comment. [Lines is Curt Catallo’s business partner, and Curt Catallo owns Honcho.]

Lines said what’s the safety reason for the one next to Honcho. I understand, Harrison, that you’re coming down to help you get the car there, but on the other side, it’s the exact opposite. You have the whole road in front of you, and you see the person on the corner there. Smith said well, I’ve had, so if you’re heading south on Main Street, and there’s a truck there, and he’s fairly, because he’s a truck, he’s kind of hanging over into the corner space, and somebody’s trying to walk across. So, I know it’s less dangerous than the Harrison one, but I have seen near misses there as well. So, the thought was, let’s do them both at the same time. Lines said but if it’s a truck that’s there that’s parked illegally, shouldn’t that get a ticket, and say it won’t park there illegally? Smith said like to think so, but yeah, it doesn’t always happen.

Jones said when we had discussed this, these parking spots going away earlier, I think it was like July, August, at some point – Smith said right – (continuing), Jones said the idea was that the parking spaces going away would be the first step, and hopefully being able to, with the budget coming, if we had the budget to be able to make those into, what was it, the curb bump outs, to continue the pedestrian safety improvements, and that would be, those four spots would be a part of that. Smith said you’re right, that’s a curb extension they call it. Jones said yeah, curb extension, thank you. Smith said so yeah, that would pave the road to doing that. Jones said yeah. Smith said so, yes.

Wylie recognized Casey for a comment.

(To Smith), Casey said you talked about the space on East Washington, on the south side at Buffalo. Smith said correct. Casey said I think there’s a problem on the same side of the street, on the north side. I frequently come down Buffalo, and I turn right onto East Washington, and there’s, most of the, a lot of times, there’s a car that’s parked right up to the stop sign. Smith said on the north side of Washington. Casey said no, on the south side. Smith said on the south side. Casey said so, you’re coming toward Washington on Buffalo. Smith said OK. Casey said turning right. And it’s difficult to see, and if somebody’s coming west on East Washington, toward the right – Smith said Main Street, yeah – (continuing), Casey said it’s really hard to see them. But, I don’t know that that’s a paved space. You know, over there. Smith said it’s not, it’s on the easement. But we allow people to gravel those spaces and park there so, but I’ll keep an eye on that. I wasn’t aware that that’s been an issue. But, and you’re right, they’re in the easement. They’re not, there’s nothing to hash off, because they’re not on the road. Casey said yeah, correct. Smith said but I’ll keep an eye on that. If that continues to be a problem, we can talk to the homeowner. Casey said OK.

Wylie said anybody else on this resolution. Council, are you all set?

(To Guillen), Wylie said then we need a roll call.

Rodgers voted yes.

Wylie said you know what, hang on a second. Did I read it? Yes, I read it, I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Guillen said I’ll start at the beginning.

Rodgers, Quisenberry, Jones, Wylie, Avery, Casey, and Forte voted yes.

Wylie said and the resolution is adopted. Thank you.

Item #11d – Closed Session (Video time mark 1:20:54):

1. Initiate a Closed Session Meeting

2. Discussion

3. End the Closed session, return to Open Session

Wylie said and we are to Item #11D, closed session.

(Wylie read the motion.)

Wylie said and we, on council, have received an attorney’s opinion. And the first item would be to initiate a closed session meeting. And during that, we’ll have a discussion and then we would have, end the closed session, return to open session.

Smith said so, we had talked about, before we go into closed session, giving the, all the council and the audience an update on where we stand on this issue. And then we can talk about legal strategy in a closed session, but we thought about in an open session, just talk about openly kind of where we are, how did we get here. So, if you’re okay, I will kick that off and I know Forte has some comments as well.

Wylie said I’m okay with it. I do have some reservations on it. Smith said I’m not talking about opinion or anything other than just the facts here. Wylie said OK.

Smith said so, how did we get here. This is regarding the Clarkston Independence Township intergovernmental agreements. So, on June 23 of this year, intergovernmental agreements with Independence Township were approved for police services, emergency services, that includes fire and EMS and building services. Those were just recently approved on June 23.

Smith said the city at that time was also investigating the possibility of contracting with the township for assessing services. But as you know, that ended when the township announced that their internal assessing department had been outsourced to Assessment Administrative Services, AAS. So in light of that change, the city then, because the county had raised their rates, the city obtained quotes from three assessing services: WCA Services, which their quotes range from $24 up to $27, Kim Fiegley Assessing, which was $22 a parcel; and AAS, which started at $21.90 in the first year and ended up with $23.68. So, we obtained those three quotes, and as you now know, we’ve approved Kim Fiegley and approved her contract this evening. But on the September 22nd meeting, city voted unanimously to select Fiegley because she was the lowest priced bidder and a very highly qualified bidder.

Smith said on September 23, the day after that selection by the city council, Supervisor [Chuck] Phyle texted me to say that because we had selected Fiegley, the township would be canceling the police, fire, DPW, and Deer Lake Beach agreements. He texted that to me.

Smith said on October 2, I didn’t react to that text, by the way, I talked with Gerry Fisher, and we set up a meeting. So, on October 2, Gerry Fisher and myself, Chuck Phyle and their attorney, Dan Kelly, the four of us sat down to discuss this cancellation. I hoped it was just a big misunderstanding, but that was not the case. Phyle’s position did not change. He suggested that the city cannot afford to be a city anymore and that we should consider folding into the township. Just kind of left at that. And then we said, let’s get back together at a future date and talk further about this.

Smith said on October 7, Forte and Quisenberry and I all attended the board meeting, the township board meeting. And at the end of that meeting, Forte and I were talking to the Clarkston Area Youth Assistance director that was there. And Phyle approached us. There was virtually no one else in the room at that point. It’s kind of the end. He approached us emphasizing his belief that the township is subsidizing the city operations. He mentioned Deer Lake Beach, and sure enough, I’ve looked at their budget and they are losing money on the operations of the Deer Lake Beach. I don’t disagree with that, and I said to Phyle, if you’re losing money on it, then I understand if the township no longer wants to run the beach for us, we would have to look into some other method yet to be determined. But he said, because they are subsidizing the city operations, he said, he implied that Deer Lake Beach was just one of many, that all agreements must now be renegotiated.

Smith said he went on to say, and we’ve talked about this this evening, that the city is not maintaining its sewer pipes. The truth is the city lines, I mentioned earlier, were all inspected last fall, resulting in prioritized list of repairs. The highest priority, the two breaks in the West Alley, were repaired last winter, and we are currently evaluating how to address the next highest priorities.

Smith said so, I just wanted to kind of set the stage on what’s happened to date. And I know Forte’s got some comments too, relative to our meeting with Phyle at the end of the last board meeting.

Forte said yeah, I’ll just reiterate what Smith said. I wrote something because I’m not super eloquent but just bear with me. So, in order to be as transparent as possible, I’d like to discuss the conversation we had with Chuck Phyle after their last board meeting. Some of this is gonna be repetitive.

Forte said after our last meeting, city council, we discussed the text that Smith got. After we hired the assessor, who we’d been recommended, so I went to the township board meeting, both to meet Phyle and to see if that conversation topic came up. It was obviously not on the agenda, so we still stuck around. Smith and I intended, like, there’s no need, it’s not on the agenda, which makes complete logical sense. But so, after the meeting, Smith and I started talking to complement the Clarkson Area Youth Association.

Forte said so afterwards, we started talking to Phyle. Phyle was obviously concerned regarding our assessing services, as well as a few other topics. So, I thought we could go through some of his concerns as a group, so we could be a good partner to the township, as well as keep the residents up to date.

Fote said the first topic that he brought all this to head was assessing during our meeting. We discussed his text, so that’s already been covered. So that’s where we left off after the last council meeting. But then in our conversation with him that evening, he said, like, we were subsidizing, we were being subsidized by the township for our police services, and we were not paying our fair share.

Forte said I’m just gonna go through each of his complaints, and then we can talk about them. And then the other thing was this, where Smith already talked about that.

Forte said he talked about building services. He noted that Fiegley would not be able to work with their building department due to the way she left things. We asked straight away, like, was there any major incident that happened? And he said no, and we asked her if she was fired. They said no. So, he didn’t give us specifics on why that would be an issue, but like was previously discussed, AAS has a significant amount of people who are also from that same department Fiegley was a part of. So, it seems like apples and apples on our end.

Forte said and then Deer Lake losing money, Smith already mentioned that, and then assessing as we’ve previously discussed. Again, my position on bringing this all was to address these concerns with all of you guys, so we can create the best plan, so we can be a good partner to Independence Township. So, yeah.

Wylie said thank you, thank you both. Forte said yeah.

Wylie said so, do you wanna talk about it now with, do council members wanna talk about this? Still in open session. Smith said yeah, I’ll talk to you if you didn’t have comments.

(To Smith), Rodgers said I have a question for you.

Wylie said one second. I forgot to introduce Kristen Kolb, who is our attorney tonight, and just so people know who you are, and thank you for being here tonight. Kolb said yeah, happy to be here.

Rodgers said I have a question for you. So, Kim Fiegley was their level four assessor. Smith said correct. Rodgers said she gave her notice and left Independence. Smith nodded and said yes. Rodgers said her counterpart took over in her, in her stead, is what I have heard. Smith agreed. Rodgers said AAS came in and, for lack of a better word, poached the entire department to go and work, or at least that gentleman, to go and work for him. Chuck Phyle does not want us, very explicitly through the text message that if we hired her, he was gonna take away all our contracts. He is not good, he is not good with us hiring her. However, AAS, who took the rest of his people, he is okay with hiring, using them, and has, if I remember right, suggested that we also use them. Does he give us any indication as to, because we can’t find anybody that says nothing, anything but very good things about Kim Fiegley, and that’s why we accepted her and voted her in, where this personal issue comes in that now has ballooned into a lot of other things. I don’t believe that Independence is subsidizing us. You can speak to that better than we. We have a contract. They agreed to the contract. We paid for that contract, correct? Smith said we were meeting all the terms of the contract.

Rodgers said OK, so that subsidized word, I’m not really clear on what that means either. So I’m just confused, and I don’t know if he gave you any insight as to why he would threaten to cancel all our contracts if we chose somebody who, other than his own personal, I can’t even say opinion, because he doesn’t say anything negative about her, we can’t find any reason, and she was the least expensive, giving us the best services. Am I missing anything there, or? I can’t piece it together. I can’t figure out where it’s coming from.

Smith said I would agree. We’re missing that piece of information, why he was so strongly concerned about us hiring Fiegley. I asked if there was anything in her background, anything in the history, that would suggest why I shouldn’t hire her, and he didn’t offer anything. Forte said we both asked after that meeting. Smith said if there was something that she had done that was illegal in her timing with the township, that would, I would have been all ears to that, but that was not shared with me. I don’t believe that’s the case. She’s highly regarded in the field, and has nothing but the best reputation, so.

Rodgers said and prior to us accepting her, or hiring her, there was no mention from Independence Township, Mr. Phyle, explicitly, that he wanted to renegotiate any contract that had just been signed three months prior. Smith said correct. (To Smith), Forte said and you clarified with her, correct, that she’d be able to work with the Independence Building Department. Smith said I did, I asked her that, and she had no concerns about interfacing that direction with Dave Moran and the building Department, so.

Smith said but yes, I mean, the subsidizing term would suggest that the police contract, for example, which was just approved in June, it’s not, the ink’s hardly dry on that, and yet, suddenly now, they’re losing money on it, and as a result, they feel they’re subsidizing the city. Quisenberry said and it was signed under his watch. Smith said signed under his watch, absolutely. Avery said with the numbers that they – Smith said correct – (continuing), Avery said put. It’s not like we negotiated with them. Wylie said no, they presented the numbers. Avery said they said, what is the cost? Are you guys in? And now, he doesn’t want to.

Quisenberry said and the same with fire. Avery said yeah. Smith said correct. Rodgers said and the same with sewer. Jones said the subsidized language sounds very similar to what the Oakland . . .

Wylie recognized Casey for a comment.

(To Smith), Casey said do you think that Phyle has considered that in complaining about the cost of the beach, if we take it over, we can just limit it to village residents and the hell with the township? Smith said that’s possible. We acknowledge that most of Parks and Rec, Coté and I took some time today and went through the budget, and most of Parks and Rec is not a money-making operation. It’s a benefit to the community. Casey said right. Smith said they’re not profiting from it, clearly. But that’s one of the things you don’t make money on. Rodgers said and how much do we rent that beach to them for? Smith said one dollar. Rodgers said oh that’s good.

Wylie said just, this is the way I understand it, what the contract works with the beach. They pay us a dollar. They can use the beach. They can run the beach. Then we though, as residents, we can participate in Parks and Rec activities. Smith said you have to buy a permit. Wylie said with a permit, yeah. But I can sign my children up for kiddie kicker soccer as a resident. I can participate in senior center activities as a resident. So that is a benefit for us. Forte said but we wouldn’t give that up, would we? Wylie said that’s part, as I understand it, that’s part of the beach deal. And I may be wrong, but that’s – Smith said well, the activities at the beach are, so swim lessons, to your point, things like swim lessons or swim aerobics, any of that that Parks and Rec offers, you would be eligible to participate in that. Now, whether there’s some soccer camp or a (unintelligible), or I don’t know whether that would buy you into that as well.

[Clarkston Sunshine: Smith signed the lease and should know what is in it. The lease provides: The Township Lessee will not impose additional user of permit fees on City residents in excess of those regularly charged Township residents for entrance or use of Township park facilities or recreational activities during the term of the Lease. But the Independence Township web site for Deer Lake Beach passes says the resident rate applies to township residents.]

Wylie said when my children were younger, we always got the township price for those activities because we were a city resident. And I was always under the impression, I was not on council in those days, but that was part of the beach deal. Smith said I’m not familiar with that. Wylie said I don’t think anybody has, I may be the only one who thinks this. Avery said it wasn’t a big deal. It wasn’t a big deal. Wylie said it wasn’t a big deal.

Rodgers said well, it shouldn’t be a big deal. We’re one community. That’s the part that I am, that makes me super frustrated. We are one community, two separate entities, but we’ve always kind of dealt with one another as one community. Our kids all go to the same school. They all share the same services. Wylie said well, I mean, somebody has to pay for it. Rodgers said of course they do. Wylie said somebody’s gotta pay for it. Rodgers said of course they do. We are, we have a contract, we pay for it. We do exactly what they asked us to do. We just signed that three months ago, four or five months ago. Smith said the beach contract is actually a few years old. It’s actually coming up for a new one in 2026. So hypothetically, that would be the time to renegotiate that or not negotiate it and just it reverts back to us. We’ll have to cross that bridge when we get there.

[Clarkston Sunshine: The beach lease expires on December 31, 2025. It should be addressed now.]

Wylie recognized Jones for a comment.

Jones said well, I was just gonna say, I mean, we have signed contracts. Wylie said yes. Jones said I mean, we have signed contracts. So, what, I mean, what do we do? Avery said well, we’ll talk about that. Jones said yeah, OK. That’s, OK. I was just gonna say, like, that’s, yeah. Avery said what our options are. Jones said yeah.

Wylie said OK, anybody else in council have any comments to make at this open session on this?

No comments.

Wylie said anybody in the public have comments or questions on the open session.

Pardee said we would pay half of the beach costs, does that take away? Wylie said we have no idea. Avery said we’ve got 800 residents to 38,000. You think we should pay half? Rodgers said yeah. Avery said that seems a little. Wylie said I think they would say, yeah. They should jump it. If we got the beach, they should jump it there. Jones said that and we signed the contract already. Pardee said I’m just trying to – (interrupting Pardee), Avery said beyond the fact that we’re already. Wylie said we have no idea what they want. Avery said yeah. Wylie said we have no idea.

Wylie said anybody else on . . . (to Pardee), Wylie said did you want something else.

No comment.

Wylie said anybody else have anything.

Coté said yeah, I just wanna make a quick comment. On their 2025 budget, just so you guys are aware, the recreation portion, they were showing a $739,000 deficit. The parks portion, they were showing an $839,000 deficit. The seniors portion, $589,000 and other was $29,000. Wylie said those are all deficits? Coté said yes, ma’am. They transferred $2.1 million into those four components to make it whole. Smith said out of the operational budget. Coté said correct. Smith said into the Parks and Rec. Coté said so, it’s just not Deer Lake that’s a money loser. There’s multiple programs there. And that’s the way it should be. Government, you give it, and you take it. We’re offering these services for the residents for a better community. Wylie said yes. Jones said no one’s supposed to get into public service for profit. Coté said exactly. It’s right here in the numbers, folks. Wylie said great and thanked Coté.

Wylie said anybody else.

Wylie recognized Forte for a comment.

Forte said I tried to figure out, like, how much we pay versus how much they pay for police services. So, when we got those contracts and we pay 2.7%, I think it’s like per call, not per call, but like per, what is the correct term? Coté said per capita. Smith said per capita. So, it’s 2.7% of the total cost. Forte said yeah. Quisenberry said of what their cost is from the Sheriff’s Department. Forte said is there a way for us to compare what they’re paying? So, we know that we’re paying similar to their residents or how do we go about contracts? Smith  said I don’t know how that works on a resident. I haven’t done the math. So, if we’re paying 2.7% and the assumption is they’re paying 97.33%. So, they’re paying the other 97%. How that equates to a per residence or per residential, per home basis, I haven’t done that math. We did, you know, I asked, I think I shared this with council earlier in the year. I asked the Oakland County Sheriff to provide to me how many calls for service they were getting on police versus the township. And I did the math and 4.4% of the calls that the total sheriff gets, 4.4% were from the city, 95.6% from the township. So, it would suggest that 2.7% is actually a good deal for the city.

Forte said are those just geolocated calls or are those residents calls? Smith said they just, the sheriff just calls them calls for service. Beyond that, I don’t know. I can try to get some more details on that if you would. Forte said yeah, because I would say that they’re not all of our residents. They could be people who are like, I’m on Main Street and the traffic’s terrible. This jerk is cutting me off. Do something. Smith said could actually be non-residents that are calling not because they need help at home, but because they just had an accident at Washington and Main. Forte said yeah, and I would argue that that could boost our numbers. Smith said it would boost our numbers. Forte said just due to the fact that we’re a little city that facilitates a lot of traffic in our hub. Smith said that’s a good point.

Wylie said my recollection is that there was a little back and forth in negotiating on that police contract. Am I remembering correctly? Probably with you and Coté and maybe the treasurer. Smith said Phyle and I went through the numbers. And he asked, where do you need to be? And I said, I can’t afford these numbers the way they stand. And we negotiated some changes. But it wasn’t a wholesale difference. It was more on the administrative costs that some changes were made. Forte said because isn’t it like $300 per month administrative costs, something like that? Smith said yeah, I shared with you the contract, but I didn’t read it myself, so I don’t know the numbers. Forte said yeah

Wylie recognized Quisenberry for a comment.

Quisenberry said it’d be interesting to find this out. Because to me, this is all strange and it’s not the way police costs are typically computed. The Sheriff’s Department provides services to Independence Township based on the number of people that they assign there. A captain costs so much. A lieutenant costs much. These cost this. Detectives, school officer, all those personnel are put together in a package. And it says, for you, for us to provide police services for your community, this is what it’s going to cost you. Then once they get there, whether they get five calls a day or three calls a day is academic. And I’m going to say again, once again, I’m not positive, but this other factor that’s thrown into this cost of police services is very new to me. And if they’re doing that now, then to Forte’s point, it’s, you’re buying a pig in a poke sometimes because there might be a lot of services that are appearing in the village, but they’re not by our village people. So, knowing that, the cost of the police package, and I know this, because when I was in Royal Oak, there was some talk of contracting out. And that’s exactly how it’s figured out, is the personnel that you want a contract for, 50 people. Rochester has 74 people. Brandon has 35. Oxford has these many. That’s what the Sheriff’s Department bills the community for. Now, because we subcontract with the, Independence, they have came up with a matrix, which we understood, was explained to us, and it was agreed upon, especially considering the debacle that occurred over the overpayment. They were very circumspect on finding out how much we should pay them for our share of what they’re being billed. And there was a percentage of our residents, I think our home value. There was three or four different items that were put in this matrix that came up with how much we would be paid, we should pay, out of their budget for what we use. That’s it. Whether we have two break-ins or twenty break-ins and have people come over here, it should be academic as far as the costs. But I’ll again reiterate, I think that that’s something that needs to be set down and clarified. What is your cost that you get from, and that’s simple to find the Sheriff’s office that can tell you that. What does Brandon pay? What is the cost that these municipalities pay for your service? And what is that based on? And then what is Independence Township using their costs to charge us for our portion of that service?

Wylie said but it all happened already. I know you know that. Quisenberry said I know, I know, it happened three months ago, and now I’m under his watch. So, what changed in that time period? Well, I think we can make a guess, but that’s it.

Wylie said anybody else. Thank you for our refresher course. Anybody else?

Wylie said OK. I’m sorry, I heard a voice.

An unidentified woman said yes. I’d like to say something as a resident here in the city. I’m going to read it. As a resident, what I’m hearing, all this started when the city hired the assessor. Therefore, my opinion is that there is a personality conflict going on here, and that someone is wanting to hinder somebody’s career. And that does not feel good to me. Thank you.

Wylie recognized Olsen for a comment.

Olsen said one comment. I’m sure you’ll discuss this in your closed session. Unless I’m really missing something, a contract is, I mean, we can get our legal counsel here, but a signed contract is a signed contract, unless in the contract it says it can be renegotiated. In ‘26, when it comes due, they can change it or say, we don’t want to do it anymore. I don’t see how they can change anything that’s legally binding, unless there’s a breach. Coté  said ‘28, that’s a three-year contract. Olsen said yeah. I’m saying, but unless there’s a breach of contract. Coté said yeah. Olsen said OK, I don’t get it.

Forte said and I think maybe we can say, before going into closed session, is hiring Fiegley a breach of contract for police and fire and? Smith said Fisher has looked at that and says, no, that’s not a condition of the police and fire contracts. And Phyle himself has not implied that. Phyle was saying that his, that partners should be working more closely together. It’s been his defense, is that we should be working together on this. Forte said and Fiegley’s offered that she can work with Independence Township. Pardee said he was saying that Fiegley wasn’t able to work with his Independence staff (unintelligible).

Wylie recognized Catallo for a comment.

Catallo said well, just to backtrack, it sounded like, from the initial text, it certainly sounded like that’s what he was implying. So even if you want to think that that’s not his backpedaling, but it just seemed like that was the major aspect, just from the outset of his statement. Wylie said yes and thanked Catallo.

(To Quisenberry), Wylie said you had something.

Quisenberry said yeah, I did, to Ms. Olsen’s comment about signed contracts in three years. And we had a signed contract with Oakland County for assessing. But in that contract was a get-out clause that was able, either party could exercise it within so many days. Is there a get-out clause to the contract that we signed with them for police services and fire services? Kolb said I believe there is a no cause out upon a certain number of days’ notice. Forte said yeah, I think it’s like allowed. Kolb said there’s, but to that, but we should talk about that in closed session.

Wylie said anybody else before we move and get a closed session.

No comments.

Wylie said OK. So, we have to initiate a closed session. And we already have it on the agenda, so we don’t have to add it to the agenda. Smith said no. Wylie said so, I need, because I don’t do this very often, I need a motion to go into closed session. Kolb said and a roll call vote. Wylie said OK, thank you.

Motion by Avery.

Smith said you should read that statement. Wylie said OK. Jones said she already did. Kolb said she did. Smith said did you. Kolb said yeah. Wylie said OK. Oh, yeah, I did.

Second Casey.

Wylie said discussion from members on council.

No discussion.

Wylie said discussion from the public.

No discussion.

Wylie said and we’ll take a roll call. (To Guillen),Wylie said if you’d do a roll call, please.

Rodgers, Avery, Jones, Quisenberry, Forte, Wylie, and Casey voted yes.

Wylie said OK, so that is unanimous. We are going into closed session. And so, for those of you who are here, we will let you know when we’re out of closed session. By the way, we’re going to closed session. Oh, not yet, 8:21. But there’s nothing else in the meeting after the closed session. We’re going to adjourn the meeting after that, unless there’s something that we need to vote on. So, if you want to hang around, we can let you know afterwards. Otherwise, you have to leave. I mean, no matter what, you have to leave. OK.

Agenda Item #12, Adjourn Meeting (Video time mark – NONE):

[The adjournment was not included on the Independence Township video recording of the meeting.]

Resources:

• • Link to video recording here
  • 10-13-2025 city council packet